RE: [MTC Global] Considering industry experience in academic institutions under career advancement scheme [ CAS]

I beg to differ with the observation that one comes to academic from industry when he is not required in the industry. I have seen a number of young professional moving from industry to academics during their hay days when they were making good money and winning accolades in their profession. Second, now a days working life is up to 75/80 years so even if a person enters the profession of teaching at 60 and he is good at his task, he still has lot  more to contribute.

Regards

Virendra Goel

 

From: join_mtc@googlegroups.com [mailto:join_mtc@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of feroz ikbal
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:28 PM
To: join_mtc@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MTC Global] Considering industry experience in academic institutions under career advancement scheme [ CAS]

 

Hi,

 when does a person comes from Industry to Academics . A frank answer will be 'when he/ she is no longer required in the industry.".

The love for academic work will come to a practitioner when he  becomes outdated or thrown out or retired from  the industry. In class rooms he will be like a soldier who always boasts about the old war. 

Today what management education or education as  a whole requires is not the absence of practitioner, it is the lack of sound conceptual knowledge which needs to be transferred to the students. 

On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 10:36 AM, soumya sagiri <soumyasagiri@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All,

 

I am coming back to MTC after a long time later due busy with work schedules and meetings - Reg PhD, academics and Industry exp - i have a detail write up in the past. Like to share with you all again. You can let me know your comments or feedback or anything you wish.

 

On this topic i can share my thoughts and views.

1. PhD is supposed to be provided to only those who has done genuine
research or innovation or discovery or process excellence. However in
today's world especially in Management field PhD are offered with out proper
addition to literature or innovation or discovery or process excellence
especially in India.

Even a Doctorate can be offered to a person who wide knowledge in one
practical area with above 10 years of experience.

2. According to me to teach Management, PhD is not required. Most of the
people who process PhD don't have practical exposure to Industry, process,
sectors, cultures, structures, divisions and practical exposure towards
these. Any person with sound knowledge in basics, practical exposure in the
Industry, domain expertise is enough to teach the students.

3. Management is all about Industry not about PhD, just a literature review,
survey, case or empirical research is not enough to provide the
practicalities of the business , they need to experience, feel the pressure,
targets, deadlines, real implementation of strategies, standards operating
procedures, real innovative technologies, cultural diversity, communication,
team dynamics, stages of growth, experiencing the emerging sectors etc.

4. Most of the people are forgetting the truth that PhD is used for
enhancing individual knowledge to discover something and provide new
theories, mechanisms and to improve domain expertise, however it is not at
all related to the profession of being an excellent academician. Most of the
professors struggle with ego problems in academics. Academics lacking
transparency, proper escalation real education all together just because
"One Degree Sake"  - Real respect is missing ...

I saw one movie long back ( I don't remember the name now) - In the movie
they explained clearly when a person tries to learn more and more expertise
they forget the basics so a Professor always need to go back and learn the
basics (Common Sense) to bring real innovations and creativity.

5. I personally feel real academician is supposed to work few years in
Industry and need to work in academics, later on again after few years later
they need to go back to industry and come back with new flow of knowledge to
train the students as emerging and skillful managers.

6. The important aspect is most of the people are pursuing PhD just for the
sake of obtain the degree, lucrative scale and respect in society. But how
far they are really doing justice, how far they done the research
 research?  OR simply accumulating the literature and data, obtaining PhD
doesn't lead to any where....other than exceptional Universities.

7. The AICTE or Govt need build such kind of rules where the person should
certain years of Industrial experience or some kind provisions need to be
created to obtain real industry exposure and  a PhD are eligible to become
professors. I saw even PhD holder don't know how to write a basic article or
research paper, they convert student SIP reports as papers. The Indian
education system lacking real skills, innovation and creativity.

8. As per my personal observations (again limited in nature) most of the
professors busy in managing politics in academics, reluctant to change and
they even don't know the basic Microsoft tools like Word, Excel
& PowerPoint, if these minimum things are not known to a professor-  how can
a student will meet real industry standards. Everybody need to think
logically and practically - Especially professionals in Management field
need to have industry exposure.

Their theories on what they regarded as a thoroughly scientific basis (.
Examples include Henry R. Towne's “Science of management” in the 1890s,
Frederick Winslow Taylor's “The Principles of Scientific Management” (1911),
Frank and Lillian Gilbreth's “Applied motion study” (1917), and Henry L.
Gantt's charts (1910s). J. Duncan wrote the first college management
textbook in 1911. In 1912 Yoichi Ueno introduced Taylorism to Japan and
became first management consultant of the "Japanese-management style". His
son Ichiro Ueno pioneered Japanese quality assurance.

The first comprehensive theories of management appeared around 1920. The
Harvard Business School invented the Master of Business Administration
degree (MBA) in 1921. People like Henri Fayol (1841–1925) and Alexander
Church described the various branches of management and their
inter-relationships. In the early 20th century, people like Ordway Tead
(1891–1973), Walter Scott and J. Mooney applied the principles of psychology
to management, while other writers, such as Elton Mayo (1880–1949), Mary
Parker Follett (1868–1933), Chester Barnard (1886–1961), Max Weber
(1864–1920), Rensis Likert (1903–1981), and Chris Argyris (1923 - )
approached the phenomenon of management from a
sociological<https://mail.google.com/wiki/Sociology>perspective.

Peter Drucker (1909–2005) wrote one of the earliest books on applied
management: *Concept of the Corporation* (published in 1946). It resulted
from Alfred Sloan (chairman of General Motors until 1956) commissioning a
study of the organisation. Drucker went on to write 39 books, many in the
same vein.

H. Dodge, Ronald Fisher (1890–1962), and Thornton C. Fry introduced
statistical techniques into management-studies. In the 1940s, Patrick
Blackett combined these statistical theories with microeconomic theory and
gave birth to the science of operations research. Operations research,
sometimes known as "management science" (but distinct from Taylor's
scientific management), attempts to take a scientific approach to solving
management problems, particularly in the areas of logistics and operations.

Some of the more recent[developments include the Theory of Constraints,
management by objectives, re engineering, Six Sigma and various
information-technology-driven theories such as agile software development,
as well as group management theories such as Cog's Ladder.

As the general recognition of managers as a class solidified during the 20th
century and gave perceived practitioners of the art/science of management a
certain amount of prestige, so the way opened for popularised systems of
management ideas to peddle their wares. In this context many management fads
may have had more to do with pop psychology than with scientific theories of
management.

*All these experts are from Industry some are engineers, psychologists,
process or entrepreneurs inn the organisation used to do routine tasks and
operations, these theories are not born from faculty cabins they
experimented their knowledge, learning's on shop floors, industries, markets
and various other platforms. How drug undergoes various clinical trials and
finally reaches market with brand name and formulae.*

Management is learned better through experiencing the practical
knowledge and applied, then theories are build - added to literature - Any
theory for that matter is experienced first by the scientist or developer
used various other sources of material which are used practically than that
is converted into contemporary Theory.  For that matter clerk job or peons
jobs they are people who might to do the same thing in different way with
less period  of time that is called efficiency and just in time. How come their
knowledge will be zero, obviously they do posses certain amount of skills
and knowledge.

I don't think anybody will have zero knowledge, even the mentally
handicapped person to posses some knowledge through routine tasks and
observation.  Business & Management is required to be learned from beggar,
street vendors, house wife, clerks, managers, CEO, entrepreneurs, lenders.
All these people stories are today case studies for us from street vendors
to film making.

Only thing in any profession a person need to learn, how competitive he is
supposed to be? Flexible to change and adapt in this nature. Then the
ultimate thing to see the commitment of nature to us is to be patient enough
to reap the fruits. Need to accept the change and update our self
continuously.

Earlier, i am also a student, Management Teacher and now I am a Resource Manager for Billion Dollar Company we are continuous learners : i need everything from professors, but they can’t teach practical
stuff sometimes more than a concept, then i need industry experts to learn
the reality, later when my exams are approaching i need professor again.
Every student is like this ----- Only solution is flexible enough to learn
history, practicality, emerging dynamics in the society to meet complete
student requirements.

This information is not to offend any body thought process; however we need
to change our attitude towards education system, student’s requirements and
in holistic nature.

kindly revert me for further suggestions and comments.

 

Thanks & Best regards,
Soumya Sagiri | Sr. Resource Manager |  Romack | office 972-573-3342 x 110 | cell 972-975-8201  |  5525 N MacArthur Blvd., Suite 550, Irving TX USA 75038
Fax 972-573-3303,  Yahoo id :  soumyasagiri, Gtalk: soumyasagiri
Email: Soumya.Sagiri@romackinc.com 
   
  

 

On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 9:40 PM, Richard Hay <profhay@gmail.com> wrote:Dear All,

The topic is quite interesting and augurs well for us to deliberate on it.

One big advantage for an industry exposed faculty is that he can quote from real life situations with  practical and time tested examples while the campus- faculty in an educational institution depends only on theoretical knowledge and handles classes with the bookish knowledge he possesses. Even if he is a remarkable faculty, there are limitations for him to go deep into the subject from the practical point of view.

But at the same time the industry exposed faculty may not possess the dexterity and proficiency of a campus- faculty until and unless he prepares well. 

I believe that teaching is an art and it requires strenuous and focused preparation, continuous training for professional development and a strong desire to excel.

May I add that the quality of curriculum and the faculty are decisive factors which would ultimately decide the quality of the product in any educational  program. While designing the curriculum, it may be noted that academia and industry level consultation which is  the need of the hour for all practical purposes is resorted to for enriching the quality of curriculum, and thereby improve the quality of education in the country. When such a fusion takes place, academic institutions will have to depend on industry  oriented faculties too to a certain extent. The presence of industry exposed faculty will be both productive and mutually beneficial for both the systems,

 It is in this context that MTC ians can  play a key role in facilitating continuous education training for the faculties of all types,whether he comes from an industrial background or not.

" All the world over there is a realization that only through right education can a better order of society  be built up"-Jawaharlal Nehru.

 

Prof Richard Hay

On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 2:51 PM, R P Singh <rpsingh55@hotmail.com> wrote:

Dear Mr Nagarajan, I agree that competencies required for academic and industrial organisations are different. However, there may be some who can effectively perform both roles and there are many who are misfit in both.   Point is B-School Grads are not supposed to just pass the exams, they need to acquire certain skills and  competencies failing which they will  not be employable.   Here lies the difference.  Academically oriented Industry leaders can definitely add value in this process of transformation of young minds into good business leaders. This can  also be done by competent academicians as well . Regards, Dr R P Singh

Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel

-----Original Message-----

From: nagarajan vasudevanrao <v.nagarajan99@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 08:58:44
To: <join_mtc@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [MTC Global] Considering industry experience in academic
 institutions under career advancement scheme [ CAS]

Dear MTC team,
 One cannot by overnight become what they aspire to. As rightly said
 by some members teaching and industry experience go  parellelly. A
 Teaching faculty cannot become an Industry Specialist nor an Industry
 specialist become a good Teacher. They are two different entities.
 Each discipline requires introspection and high intelectual calibre
 notwithstanding  the acceptance by the constituents or the users or
 the beneficiaries as the case may be. Teaching a subject by a teacher
 and describing an event with relevent examples on the same subject by
 an Industry specialist will not satisfy the requirements of
 educational curriculum which is more exam oriented. Perhaps the wards
 may enjoy when you describe an incident or an event with relevent live
 examples from industrial experience which will be different in
 countenence notwithstanding the fact that it will not be ueful in the
 examination point of view.

 Some MTCian have told that afterall the Management students are going
 to work in an industry after graduating from Business schools and
 hence if the Industry specialists are engaged  to  take lessons it
 would be incidentally beneficial to the students to get tailored to
 the needs of an industry once they take up employment.
 I have indutry experience of over 3 decades in HR/IR field and I love
 delivering guest lectures in different business schools and conduct
 FDP in many organisations   and the participants like the way I
 conduct the FDP and the Guest lecture sessions nevertheless I do not
 consider myself as a teacher which is a totally different segment.
 Just because Management students like the way we deliver guest
 lectures on a particular topic/subject and also interestingly interact
 we cannot cling to the idea that we can become a good teacher.

 We cannot synchronise Educational curriculum which is practiced by the
 Institutions and the intellectual and technical capacities of the
 Industry specialits. Otherwise industries themselves can become
 training specialists and run institutions parellel to the educational
 institutions which is not practical.

 Educational institutions according to me are the centres of laying
 foundation for creating centres of academic excellence required for
 industrial growth.
 V.Nagarajan,
 Retd.General Manager-HR (TTK Prtestige Limited, Hosur)
 HR Trainer & Advisor,
 0999 49 19619
 mail id: vnagarajan99@gmail.com

 On 8/26/12, pranjali m <pranjalim7@gmail.com> wrote:
 > Hi All,
 >
 > This discussion is really going good..I have a question on this..
 > As we all said that industrial experience can be count in the teaching
 > experience in academic service.
 > But if any faculty was doing full time legal practice as an advocate, can
 > that full time practice also should be count in academic experience &
 > should be given justice to their law practice.
 > Kindly guide on this also..Can we put a Public Interest Litigation on this
 > to High Court?
 >
 > Prof. Pranjali M
 > Pune
 > Email id:- pranjalim7@gmail.com
 >
 >
 >
 > On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 8:17 PM, ananda reddy
 > <anandareddy@hotmail.com>wrote:
 >
 >>  True.
 >>
 >> The skill of facilitating learning a particular subject needs to be
 >> learnt
 >> and practiced. This holds true not only for those who have worked in the
 >> industry, it holds true for those who have completed their Ph.D.
 >>
 >> I have over 20 years of industry experience, over 10 years of consulting
 >> and teaching experience. I have been a faculty member teaching specific
 >> subjects, Principal of Colleges, Training Manager & Trainer in the
 >> industry
 >> and am now an entreprenuer. I have conducted FDPs, Success Seminars for
 >> Students, continue to mentor faculty members and also taught subjects
 >> when
 >> necessary. Different roles need different skills.
 >>
 >> In my experience, it is all about creating interest in the subject and
 >> then helping the student to learn. Learning is the learner's
 >> responsibility.
 >>
 >> With Warm Regards,
 >>
 >> Ananda Reddy
 >> Founder Director
 >> ACE Institute for Creating Excellence
 >> 33, 1st Main, Sheshadripuram,
 >> Bangalore: 560020
 >> Ph: +918147092023
 >> email: anand@ace-institute.com

 >> URL: www.ace-institute.com <http://www.ace-institute.com>

 

 >>
 >>
 >>  ------------------------------
 >> From: goel.virendra@gmail.com
 >> To: join_mtc@googlegroups.com
 >> Subject: RE: [MTC Global] Considering industry experience in academic
 >> institutions under career advancement scheme [ CAS]
 >> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:25:06 +0530
 >>
 >>
 >>  Can we look at the problem little differently!
 >>
 >> Industry experience may make one eligible to be a good leader to manage
 >> an
 >> educational institute or a good mentor. As far as teaching is concerned
 >> it
 >> is altogether and different skill and even an experienced person from
 >> industry will have to acquire this skill. I have an industrial experience
 >> of 48 years, I managed a top ranking CBSE school for 25 years and I
 >> mentored the teachers all the time, I conducted even FDP, I have been
 >> founder chairman of a engineering and management institute. I used to
 >> hold
 >> motivational lectures of two hours duration with the students where I
 >> could
 >> command full attention and respect of students. But if I am asked to
 >> teach
 >> a subject in the classroom, I do not find myself equipped for that
 >> purpose.
 >> Reason is very simple - I have to go down to understanding frequency of
 >> the
 >> students to be able to effective from high frequency of thought process
 >> and
 >> communication and I may not know how to do that. Even in teaching
 >> community, I have come across teachers who are very good in their
 >> contents
 >> but they are ineffective in the classroom.
 >>
 >> Regards
 >>
 >> Virendra Goel
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> *From:* join_mtc@googlegroups.com [mailto:join_mtc@googlegroups.com] *On
 >> Behalf Of *Chandrakanth Sharma
 >> *Sent:* Saturday, August 25, 2012 10:29 PM
 >> *To:* join_mtc@googlegroups.com
 >> *Subject:* Re: [MTC Global] Considering industry experience in academic
 >> institutions under career advancement scheme [ CAS]
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> do u know even CEOs of 1000 crore companies are not eligible to work as
 >> principal or profes
 >> sor......p c k sharma
 >>
 >> On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 6:09 PM, Ashok Matani <ashokgm333@rediffmail.com>
 >> wrote:
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> Hon. Sir
 >>
 >> Subject : Considering industry experience in academic institutions under
 >> career advancement scheme [ CAS]
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> [1] The importance of industrial experience  is that it is useful for
 >> teaching subjects namely, energy conversion, thermodynamics, heat
 >> transfer,
 >> power plant engineering, energy conservation and power plant economics,
 >> non-conventional energy sources, industrial management & costing, thermal
 >> &
 >> fluid power, machine drawing, industrial management, production
 >> technology,
 >> industrial projects, seminars, etc.  in the technical education system.
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> [2] Some of the academicians having  only industry experience have been
 >> selected in Universities/ engineering colleges on higher posts  in IITs/
 >> IIMs/ Govt Engg colleges
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> [3] Persons having industrial exposure   are nominated on  Board of
 >> Governors / Senate members in Autonomous colleges   approved by AICTE /
 >> UGC
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> [4]The outputs of technical education systems are mainly *appointed in
 >> industries.*
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> [5] The *curriculum* of technical education systems are industry based
 >> and are regularly updated as per needs of industries.
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> [6] Case method based on  industrial case problems are taught in
 >> IITs/IIMs/ majority of technical education institutions throughout the
 >> world.
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> [7] Industrial visits  for  teachers and students are regularly conducted
 >> for industrial exposure .
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> [8] STTPs , seminars, conferences , workshops based on industry problems
 >> are highly appreciated by AICTE/ ISTE and grants are sanctioned for these
 >> areas.
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> [9] Industry-institute-interaction [I-I-I] is the main component of world
 >> bank aided / TEQIP projects indicating the importance of industrial
 >> experience to the academic world.
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> [10]  Projects ,  and seminars  of final year students are based  on
 >> Industry are now  compulsory for  technical education system students
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> Considering the  importance of  industry experience towards improving the
 >> quality in  the teaching profession , it becomes evident to consider
 >> industrial experience [ at any level  of appointment ] gained after
 >> bachelors degree   should be considered for  CAS purposes .
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> Regards
 >>
 >> Anil G. Tardeja
 >> President
 >> Shiv Education Foundation
 >> Bapu Colony, Kanwar Nagar
 >> Amravati-444606[ MS]
 >>
 >>
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 >

 

--
Soumya Sagiri