Re: Echoes From Panel Discussion

@Louis: I think you are the one who doesn't know what you are talking about. Like I've said. Have one of these executives in these NGOs go live in that region of Cameroon. Do you know why African always champion all these World environment/ecological forums? It's because it's no secret that Africa still has the best eco-systems in the world. African nations have the lowest ecological footprint in the world. See for yourself at http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/env_eco_foo-environment-ecological-footprint. Check out Cameroon on the list, we have one of the lowest ecological footprints in the world. Up to 45% of our land mass is forest. Do you think it's a 751 hectare of land that will change that? These NGOs are spewing fallacies and only sheep are marching behind them. You may have been raised on a farm, but I'm sure you  currently don't live on one. It's been noted, that Herakles is under obligation to plant 100 trees for each one taken down. That's the law in Cameroon. You need to face the government for them to enforce that law. If you want to maintain your ecosystem, they will replant it for you.

On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:18:21 AM UTC-5, ftroit wrote:

You are all missing the point. That land deal had the blessings of a customary figure in that region. And yes, oh please yes, you really need to delve into the Zimbabwe situation. Zimbabwe is and has always been (as is Cameroon by the way) an economy driven by agriculture. Subsistence agriculture in no economics text book has never been the way to drive the economy. Zimbabwe is a typical example and you are sidestepping the root cause of Zimbabwe's problems and blaming in on the politics. What politics? It's the politics of the land. It's not necessarily that Mugabe has refused to relinquish power. Khaddaffi held on to power but his people had a good lifestyle. Don't side track the issue.

As for nationalization, it's a tool for every government to use. Zambia recently did it. The U.S. also did it in the case of GM, until GM repaid their loan to the government. It's what States do. There is nothing politically wrong with doing that. It's called smarts.Who is nationalizing what? Any government. Be it the government of Cameroon or the government of Southern Cameroons.

And finally as it's been said before, the truth of the matter is that Cameroon, and in particular, that part of the South West is not even remotely facing any ecological problems. It's just people who are used to their same old, life and don't want to let go of what they're used to.



 

On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 2:36:28 AM UTC-5, Samuel Laikenjoh wrote:

What the heck is Ftroit talking about? Nationalization? Who will be nationalizing what and in which territory? We have a two pronged problem here. The first is that the person selling or should I say for your convinience that is leasing the land lacks the locus to do so. He is occupying the land illegally ' nemo dat quod non habet' Secondly the destruction of the ecosystem is what we are complaining here about. What would nationalization do to an already depleated land? You remember the provinces of Alsace and Lorraine in France? Germany when they felt like beating someone just moved over to these provinces beat the hell out of the French and occupied it. These were the only mineral rich areas in France. When in occupation the Germans mined all that was found in the sub soil and of course the French have back their Alsace and Lorraine with so many Germans still living there with not a single mineral to mine. That is why France till today is hanging on to her former colonies in order to survive. How different is our case from the above illustrated situation? Ftroit again shoots himself on the foot when he mentions nationalization as a future modus operandi to regain lost land. Which investor will come to a country knowing that after making his investments the government will turn around and nationalize such investments? I don't want to get into the Zimbabwe scenario that has many political ramifications. It is again another sorry example. Do you really subscribe to the fact that 90% of the fertile agricultural land was owned by 10% of the population. That was the raison d'etre for the war of Independence though we could arguably state that political jingoism has failed the population and not the fact that farms were taken away from the white farmers. Do you want to bring us to the pre Zimbabwe situation with the Herakle farms? Lies. Visha Fai --- On Wed, 27/2/13, louis egbe <louis...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: From: louis egbe <louis...@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: Echoes From Panel Discussion To: amba...@googlegroups.com Date: Wednesday, 27 February, 2013, 0:11 I do not think you know or understand what you are talking about here. Please, do not take people here for illiterates regarding eco-system and how the forest supports rivers, springs, staves off top soil depletion, enhances rainfall and biodiversity. Let me inform you that the Sahara desert came into being based on misguided ideas about "small" forest or savannah over grazing. And please, save us from this misguided "technology". I grew up in plantation Agriculture and know what it takes with my eyes closed. --- On Tue, 26/2/13, ftroit <ftr...@hotmail.com> wrote: From: ftroit <ftr...@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Echoes From Panel Discussion To: amba...@googlegroups.com Date: Tuesday, 26 February, 2013, 22:49 Hi, for starters, methane capture technology, with effluent from the mill treated and utilized as a nutrient-enriched source of water and fertilizer for the trees. Palmol currently uses manual capture. In addition to these, processing mills. Finally, arguing for more technology is where the focus should be, rather than continue to blindly follow what these environmental NGOs make you and others believe the problem is. There is no eco-system problem in that part of Cameroon. Further, there are hectares and hectares of forest that are not affected. It's all about educating the population of options, rather than continuing to make them believe that the world has come to an end for them. If this company pays taxes to the local rural council, the population should also pressure the council to show for the increased revenues. While manual work may be involved, the pressure needs to be more on insistence on the development of more sophisticated processing technologies. Again, the NGOs, most of whom arise out of, and have their main offices in cities where there's not a single bush to speak of, only make the gullible believe that it's better to save a tiny portion of a forest than to better the lives of a population with better roads, and other services. Only a gullible person will believe that. Many of these guys who run these NGOs would not for one one day swap their high pays and come and reside in these locales they claim to want to save. Give me a break. While a lot of what these NGOs say may make scientific sense, in many cases, they're just outright ridiculous and need to continue to say these things so that they can have a reason to ask for money from their wealthy donors and especially, their governments. NGOs are big business, especially in Europe. They get enormous money from their State governments.  I wonder whether people in Yaounde are dying of hunger since the bushes were cut down. Last I checked, folks in Washington DC have a higher standard of living and lifespan than those in Mundemba. On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 5:12:23 PM UTC-5, louis Mbua wrote: Dear Froit, What new technology that CDC does not have are you discussing here?  Palm tree/rubber plantations are just that. There is no machine to tap the rubber or cut the bunch of palms. Plantation agriculture is manual work. Pure and simple. Either you have the required number of people or no plantation. Secondly, you seem to believe that anybody is interested in "nationalising" the plantation. The point is not the plantation but the destruction of the forest and the ecosystem and the livelihood of the people. What use would be this land after it has been destroyed? Mbua --- On Tue, 26/2/13, ftroit <ftr...@hotmail.com> wrote: From: ftroit <ftr...@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Echoes From Panel Discussion To: amba...@googlegroups.com Cc: vif...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Tuesday, 26 February, 2013, 21:16 Have you heard of nationalization? Also, recently -- just last week, Zambia seized control of a Chinese privately owned mine. It's our land. Whatever installations the Americans put on the land, becomes ours in fact because we can control their actions once they're installed. What I'm saying is, some how, some money will be generated from the Herakles enterprise. No business enterprise will invest their all in one enterprise from the get. If Herakles' initial investments produce them good "rentabilite" as they say in French, the investor will want to make more money, hence further investment, whether in machinery or in lands. Of course, as I've said, all we have to do is copy and paste. Same thing the Chinese did to the Americans. American companies often used the cheap resources in China. Chinese folks copied and pasted what the Americans did, formed their owned companies and now partner with American companies in their own right! Americans are people we need to be learning from, not the French whose consorts mismanaged CDC. The price paid for the lands is not the investor's fault. You are barking at the wrong tree. You and other are picking on Herakles because (and I noted) it's an American company and Americans are generally concerned about the grievances of others. If it were a Chinese company or a French company, this story would not even have made the headlines even in the local press. We have many tools at our disposal. You can nationalize, copy and paste, or even sabotage once the company has been established. The land is there, not yielding anything. Cameroon doesn't have an ecological problem. In, fact, that part of Cameroon does not have an ecological problem. There's also a requirement in Cameroon for companies to replant a certain number of trees for one fallen tree. Also, you need to direct your attention to Yaounde to increase and impose a minimum wage and cause these investors to operate emergency facilities and other services. This issue is no different from what happened to lands in Zimbabwe. Taking away land that could have been used for large scale agriculture and just sitting on it. Heck, it's even worse than in Zimbabwe. In Zimbabwe, the land was at least being used for subsistence farming. It's not like that you are short of land, like in Washington, DC! On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 10:24:11 AM UTC-5, Samuel Laikenjoh wrote: Are you as such insinuating that it is right for Herakles farms to lease a hectare of land at 250 CFA a year for 99 years? What new technology do you also think they will bring that will drastically reduce the labor force? Am afraid you are advocating slavery again in another form.  Your approach equally defeats the argument that the farm is going to alleviate poverty in the region. Shall Herackles farms make a handout to the inhabitants of the leased lands ? How then shall they make profits out of it? If you want to help someone and he tells you he does not need your help would you go to court to force that help on such a person? No capitalist invests anywhere to lose his investments else they should just pack out bag and baggage and move to where they will be most welcome.   Land grabbing has become very fashionable now in the name of development. You and Herackles farms should leave us alone in our jungles. Look at how we tried to bring civilization to the pygmies and have instead put them in trouble. They lived comfortably by the wild fruits and vegetables found in the forests. We in the name of civilization have cut down the forests destroying their habitats and are unable to feed and house  these people with our modern agricultural achievements. When you  want to destroy a civilization you come in the name of development and deprive a people from developing in their own way. Pygmies have been known give birth without ceasers like is common with us the civilized world because they know the kinds of herbs that are administered to a woman in labor for easy delivery. Why could we not stoop low and learn from them how to avoid unecessary deaths both for the mother and the child at delivery? Do not forget that the Inca Empire was destroyed by the so called civilized groups destroying technology that was far advanced than theirs in the name of civilization.   Let Herackles farms use their modern technology and plant palms or some other crops in the Sahara and Kalahari deserts and we will of course understand that they are out to help a people.   Which government are you asking us to fight? Do we really have one? If indeed we had such a responsible government, Herackles proposals would have been thrown out of the window a long time back. Find out the kickbacks some hoodlums had before approving this project.   My first job in Cameroon was with a Korean company working on the Nguti portion of the Mamfe road. They tarred parts of the road and the thickness of the tar was less than the breadth of a fingernail. The guy who came from Yaounde to receive the road after completion was offered a 'pajero' then a status symbol vehicle and he approved the project without more. I felt like vomitting but could do no more. I was dishonored with helping them bring in prisoners from Korea to execute their prison terms in Cameroon. The evidence is there for all of you to see. Women were raped in their farms and of course a good number of children with squinted eyes were left behind. As soon as a rape case was reported they connived with the commissioner in charge of immigration to whisk out the culprits over night back to Korea and their victims left uncompensated. The commissioner retired a multi miliionaire. That is the kind of government we have. There is no collective good for the people and of course Biya is practising governance by default. If you go through his repertoire of ministers for the thirty years of his reign you will realise that he prefers to opereate with those who have skeletons in their cupboards. If any of them dares challenge him he holds you by the balls and of course you know the rest. That is what we have for a government.   Sorry for digressing but the truth is that Herackle farms has got a lot to gain and are bent on using unorthodox methods to occupy land for which they will not be held accountable after 99 years. How many of you still remember that the demise of the defaunt Cameroon Bank began with loans to individuals payable in  99 years? Can Pa Albert Ngwana enlighten us on that topic for we hear he was the last GM before the collapse of that most cherished financial institution in the Southern Cameroons? We shall be beaten hands down because we are a colonised people for now else Herackles and La rep. du Cameroun should have been sent packing out over night.  Let them not forget that we may move away drastically from the force of argument to the argument of force. Amen. Visha Fai --- On Tue, 26/2/13, ftroit <ftr...@hotmail.com> wrote: From: ftroit <ftr...@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Echoes From Panel Discussion To: amba...@googlegroups.com Cc: "cameroon...@ yahoogroups.com" <cameroon...@ yahoogroups.com>, "Southern Cameroons" <southern...@yahoogroups. com>, "ambassonia" <amb...@yahoogroups.com>, "Cameroon Diasporaforum" <cameroondi...@ yahoogroups.com>, "camerooniancommunitymississip pi@yahoogroups.com" <camerooniancommunitymississip pi@yahoogroups.com>, "cameroon...@yahoogroups. com" <cameroon...@yahoogroups. com>, "Edimo Andrew" <esimoy...@yahoo.com> Date: Tuesday, 26 February, 2013, 15:18 Another reason why Herakles may employ less people may be because the archaic CDC may not use as much technology as Herakles. Ever thought of that? I've said time and time again. We need to do to the Chinese what the Chinese do to the Americans. That is, we need to copy their technology, make ours, without regard for intellectual property or trademark rules. If the Americans bring technology, we can copy that. And we won't need manual labor at every stage of the process. That's healthy. Our people need to be educated that you don't need to break your back for you to be productive. I remember growing up. We had 2 kinds of brooms at home. The long (stick) broom and the bamboo or is it rafia broom. An elder would scold at me for using the stick broom, and would call me lazy because I refused to use the rafia broom which requires that I bend to use. Do you know what that eventually does to the back? In the West, folks live longer than we do. It's not only because of penicillin. It's also because of care for the body. If Herakles employs technology, a savvy Cameroonian can copy the same, get his own land, employ his own 7500 too and get a loan and get the technology. If 10 people do the same, trust me, Herakles would leave Cameroon in a heart beat due to competition. On Monday, February 25, 2013 10:08:01 PM UTC-5, somamo wrote: Dear All,  It is over a week since I forwarded my invitation to the first ever international Panel Discussion on the Social and Ecological threats being posed by Herakles Farms; organized by  Greenpeace USA in Washington D: to all Cameroonian e-groups that I belonged.  The Panel Discussion which took place on Tuesday February 19, 2013 was well attended but only a handful of us were from Cameroon, even as the Greater Washington Area is fondly called Cameroon in USA due to thousands of Cameroonians living within the area.  The four presentations were educative, informative, revealing and sometimes disturbing and saddening. Attached are copies of two presentations which any right thinking Cameroonian in particular and African in general should afford to download, read and digest because they embody all descriptions I have outlined above and answers some of the nagging questions we have being asking.  These links are good readings. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ mobileweb/nasako-besingi/land- grabbing-looms-plantation_b_ 2744015.html http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/ en/media-center/reports/ Herakles-Farms-in-Cameroon/ After reading them, the legal minds in these forums should tell us why any foreign company operation in Cameroon should be above the law of our homeland? Our economists should tell us why the Cameroon Development corporation with plantations covering 41000 hectares of land area should employ 157000 workers and Herakles Farms with over 73000 Hectares should employ just 7500 workers?   If you do the arithmetic, dividing the number of hectares each company covers by the number of the workers employed or to be employed, you will find out that while one person who is employed by CDC will have to work on about 2.5 hectares, Herakles Farms will be employing one person to work on about 10 hectares and our people call that employment. Remember, Herakles Farms will exempted from paying any form of taxes to the Cameroon government for 10 consecutive years. A 10 hectares family farm will certainly employ more people and generate more money annually than the salary of a laborer working on 10 hectares on Herakles Farms palm plantations. It is amazing that while the company that makes sugar in Cameroon pays over 6000 CFA francs to the government Cameroon for each hectare of the sugar cane plantation east of the Mungo and farmers  around Panja pay up to 100000 CFA francs per hectare annually to their landlords, the government of Cameroon is willing to  mortgage the ancient tropical rainforest in the Southwest Region for as less as 250 CFA  francs per hectare annually, for 99 years with little or no consultation with  the indigenous people of the area affected. To me it is a troubling palaver. If the government of the triangle called Cameroon tailored the land tenure in 1972, that any land without a land certificate belongs to her, she should remember that before the colonial master fused the different clans, kingdoms and fondoms to call it Kamerun, Cameroon and Cameroun, which became independent on January 1, 1960 and October 1 1961 respectively, the indigenous people have being living on the land for centuries, as such their rights should respected. If I may ask, how many native lands have land certificates in Cameroon? As per the Southern Cameroons land tenure which was abrogated in 1972, all land belong to natives of area. And the government has to consult with the native if they want to put any land into use. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ambasbay" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ambasbay+u...@ googlegroups.com. 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