All India Council for Management Education/ Ph.D. and Industry Experience
Trigger Question: Prof. Bholanath Dutta Dated 03.02.2011
Dear MTCians,
Greetings............
After interacting with many academicians, corporate executives, CEO/VP/P/MD
turned academicians, even direct interaction with academicians from abroad,
one thing is very much clear that it is difficult to change the fate of
management education, easily. Management programmes are not like other
professional/vocational or academic courses, but the tragedy is AICTE/UGC
mix it up and put everything in the same basket. Very sorry figure! As per
UGC/AICTE recent guidelines, without Ph.D. , even a top level CEO cannot
become professor in academics. And forget about HOD/Director position.
Something very very unexpected... unrealistic and harmful for management
education to grow.
It is not a comparison between a pure academician and an industry expert.
There needs to be balance of both. If a corporate executive has Ph.D. and
come to academics....that may be best (eligibility + competency). Even, I
interacted with one professor from USA and his opinion was also not
different from AICTE and fundamentally focus is on Ph.D. Degree.
What is required a separate body - AICME for management programme instead of
AICTE. In AICTE primary focus is on technical education. It would be really
good, if we prepare a report on this and send it to our Hon. Education
Minister for his comment.
Request opinion on this.........
Opinion of MTCians:
(i) Mr. Ram Katla—Chapter Head: Hyderabad
Dear Prof.
I strongly believe this is our responsibility and if MTC can voice out the
need for incepting such body, I am sure the ministry will be more than
willing to listen. Moreover, now the foreign B-Schools coming to India
set-up their shop, it is all the more imperative to have a control mechanism
/ regulatory body.
Of-late we did see reforms in school education... and *Why not on management
education* *too..?* We must pursue this with determination. We got to be
perhaps more scientific in building a strong case and document it.
We can have this submission as one of MTC's core missions for the year 2011.
Let us all pledge to make this happen & I do not see any reason why can not
we make it..!!
(ii) Prof D.A.R.Subramanyam, Principal: Mahatma Gandhi College, Guntur
Dear Professor,
You have raised a very apt and topic of relevance. The AICTE especially , sorry to mention, has spoiled the education scenario in this country. Instead of stabilising and improving technical and management education. It has put the technical education in doldrums. The AICTE or UGC should leave the matters to State Councils and Concerned Universities. There are many ways that AICTE can streamline both technical and management education in this country.
1) The proposal that you have put forward is very correct2) The managements should discuss the matter at length and give representation to the MHRD .3) The local MP`s and MLA `s should rise the issue in parliament and assembly respectively about the performance of AICTE. And unfortunately they don`t have time to represent public issues.
4) Particularly the norms of the AICTE seem to friendly to Big institutions which admit hundreds and thousands of students. What about the beginners and the small managements?
5) The Vice-Chancellors and members in the committees should spend some time on this .But as i told in the above point who has time to represent all these issues of concern.?Everybody is busy in their own personal Agenda.
I really appreciate you for raising thought provoking and relevant issues for discussion.I wish MTC become more and more active and are strengthened so that the voices are seriously taken for consideration
(iii) Prof. Nityanandam, Asst. Prof. MVSR Engg. College
Dear Prof,
I was also teaching some 15 yrs back. I left the industry after serving there
for 25 years. The reason, the student is taught theory and no practical
requirement of the industry. In our days there was practical training for the
students. Now they do not bother about it. Even in the college practical classes
the technician conducts the experiment/makes the model for the students and gets
paid by the student. no teacher responsible for the practical can conduct an
experiment or run the lathe or other machines. This is the state of affairs in
all most all the colleges in India.
The pity is we do not have any technical or engineering educationist in the
country. All the qualifications prescribed or not suitable for teaching. Most of
the doctorates cannot explain their own work to a second person besides this
thesis being purely theoretical and not fit for any practical use. These people
have not done a bit of research after wards. we also teach so much theory and
Maths in particular which is not used by the student later in his life. I have
forgotten all maths i was taught.
Our engineering syllabus has to be re written with a view to make engineers
useful to the industry and be more practical oriented. Don't tell me nowhere in
the world is such a syllabus available. Let's frame one ourselves with no
pressure from any outsider. This reply is not meant to criticize anybody but the system being followed.
(iv) Dr. R Rajan, MTCian
Dear Prof. Dutta
It is really an apt and a realistic thought of yours, will definitely raise the status of Management Education in India.
Many times it has been discussed that one should have a passion for teaching and a great deal industrial exposure.
AICTE, has laid down that Management Faculty must have First Class in MBA and Ph.D for the post of Director and Professors. Does it mean that those who have second are not fit for Teaching. According to me it is the Attitude matters a lot.
In many Business Schools and Colleges, Directors and Professors are highly concentrate their attention in producing results to satisfy their employers. They are least bothered about the Industry Expectation. Hence, faculty with a blend of MBA Degree with Industry plus with a strong attitude or mindset for Teaching, can defenitely the reauired talents.
In all our days, if one want to pursue his/her MBA Programme he or she she must be a graduate in any discipline with a minimum of two years Industrial Experience that too as a Middle Level Position through a common entrance examination. That is why we are all qualitatively and quantitatively rich in the field of Management and successfully contributes our best.
But today there are too many entrance examinations and any one can enter into MBA Programme. Even a candidate who had secured negative marks in the Entrance Examination conducted by the States and the so called Consortium of Management of Management Institution.
Then, how we can be able to produce talented heads to match the Industry needs?
Henceforth, AICTE must invite Top Notch Academicians while it is in the process of formulating policies pertaining to Management.
(v) Prof. K. Vizayakumar, Former Professor and Head , Dept. of Industrial Engineering and Management , Indian Institute of Technology, Kharagpur.
Dear Prof. Dutta,
All CEOs are not useful as teachers. They should have the zeal for teaching
and have to be in touch with current developments in management paradigms.
Generally, the qualification is mentioned as Ph. D. or with equivalent
publications.
(vi) Dr. G. Vanishree, Professor & HOD for MBA, Vignan's Institute of Technology & Aeronautical Engineering. (VITAE)Deshmukhi, Hyderabad.
Industrial knowledge is practical ,professors have more theoretical knowledge than practical i feel that an industrial person teach some practical experience , students can be more enlighten and have more grip to put themselfs open for corporates according to my opinion.
(vii) Prof. Soumya Sagiri
Hi All,
On this topic i can share my thoughts and views.
1. PhD is supposed to be provided to only those who has done genuine
research or innovation or discovery or process excellence. However in
today's world especially in Management field PhD are offered with out proper
addition to literature or innovation or discovery or process excellence
especially in India.
Even a Doctorate can be offered to a person who wide knowledge in one
practical area with above 10 years of experience.
2. According to me to teach Management, PhD is not required. Most of the
people who process PhD don't have practical exposure to Industry, process,
sectors, cultures, structures, divisions and practical exposure towards
these. Any person with sound knowledge in basics, practical exposure in the
Industry, domain expertise is enough to teach the students.
3. Management is all about Industry not about PhD, just a literature review,
survey, case or empirical research is not enough to provide the
practicalities of the business , they need to experience, feel the pressure,
targets, deadlines, real implementation of strategies, standards operating
procedures, real innovative technologies, cultural diversity, communication,
team dynamics, stages of growth, experiencing the emerging sectors etc.
4. Most of the people are forgetting the truth that PhD is used for
enhancing individual knowledge to discover something and provide new
theories, mechanisms and to improve domain expertise, however it is not at
all related to the profession of being an excellent academician. Most of the
professors struggle with ego problems in academics. Academics lacking
transparency, proper escalation real education all together just because
"One Degree Sake" - Real respect is missing ...
I saw one movie long back ( I don't remember the name now) - In the movie
they explained clearly when a person tries to learn more and more expertise
they forget the basics so a Professor always need to go back and learn the
basics (Common Sense) to bring real innovations and creativity.
5. I personally feel real academician is supposed to work few years in
Industry and need to work in academics, later on again after few years later
they need to go back to industry and come back with new flow of knowledge to
train the students as emerging and skillful managers.
6. The important aspect is most of the people are pursuing PhD just for the
sake of obtain the degree, lucrative scale and respect in society. But how
far they are really doing justice, how far they done the research
research? OR simply accumulating the literature and data, obtaining PhD
doesn't lead to any where....other than exceptional Universities.
7. The AICTE or Govt need build such kind of rules where the person should
certain years of Industrial experience or some kind provisions need to be
created to obtain real industry exposure and a PhD are eligible to become
professors. I saw even PhD holder don't know how to write a basic article or
research paper, they convert student SIP reports as papers. The Indian
education system lacking real skills, innovation and creativity.
8. As per my personal observations (again limited in nature) most of the
professors busy in managing politics in academics, reluctant to change and
they even don't know the basic Microsoft tools like Word, Excel
& PowerPoint, if these minimum things are not known to a professor- how can
a student will meet real industry standards. Everybody need to think
logically and practically - Especially professionals in Management field
need to have industry exposure.
Kindly revert for any further information or suggestions.
(viii) Prof. Subha BN
Hi
On the view below, I differ in few aspects. Undoubtedly, industry inputs do add value to students. But please remember any concept evolves over a theory and enormous research goes into it and then it becomes applied. The issue here definitely is not to say whether the industry experts entering into teaching is good or bad. definitely its good, but the major concern to be addressed is how does teacher who are so called theoretical( according to some) upgrade themselves to address the needs of their customers i,e students, i think teachers should also go on sabbatical and take up some assignments in companies for few months and come back to teaching, this can become a part of their teaching career. Apart from this they can also have collaborations to take up some research assignments that could add value to their research.. PhDs could definitely be enriching if the industry academic tie ups are done with a holistic approach, in fact we need to evolve ourselves as facilitators of knowledge than teachers.
This is my opinion with due respect to all other views.
(viii) Dr. Pradeep Kautish
Hello,
I do agree with Prof. Shubha. Most of the time people mislead by industry
experience. It has many facets what do you call industry experience.
Industry experience is in which one has contributed to knowledge bottom line
not profit bottom line only. Getting business or manging business is one and
bringing innovation in business is second. Until and unless one has not
devoted self to business from the point of view innovation, his/her industry
experience is not valid for academic interface. He/she is going to tell
about routine jobs, general aspects of business.
With industry experience academia requires one who have delivered to the
existing body of knowledge not a ordinary manager worked in a PSU, bank or
some government organization and in some of the cases private also. Where
he/she supposed to perform certain duties with dead lines like a Clark or
an Assistant. No matter what was his/her designation it can GM to MD but he
has earned his/her bread and butter only. Knowledge wise exposure wise
he/she is almost ZERO.
I have seen many these kind of so called self acclaimed industry experts and
management stalwarts with 20-30 years experience in industry. When they move
to class they narrate stories only for initial few months, they mask in
front of student as if they were some big shot but soon students get to know
their reality and give them negative feedback. But by that time because of
spreading politics they fit themselves in some administrative role to
sustain their job.
Thanks,
(viii) Dr. SN Ghosal
Dear Prof. Dutta,
I am entering this debate with a bit hesitation as I hold contrarian view. I
think institutions r there to facilitate education and not for imparting
education as is commonly believed. It is perception, senses, faculties,
passion and perseverance that educate a person. It is therefore the need is
to help honing these through institutions-management and general..
With warm wishes
DR.S.N.GHOSAL
(ix) Capt. A Nagaraj
Folk,
I thought the forum was to spread information and learning. It seems we are
descending to taking pot shots at one another.
Academic learning and expertise has its place and importance as has industry
experience or for that matter experience of any kind. It is not a zero sum
game.
It is probably the reason why the IIM's keep talking about, Mumbai
Dabbawalla's all the time. Concept based experiential learning is the name of
the game and as experienced faculty is what is expected of us.
Nice weekend!
Cheers..............
(x) Dr. Pradeep Kautish
Dear Prof. Datta,
For any position in academics for that matter PhD is not at all required
anywhere, for Industry people but only condition is he/she should be from a
strong industry background. Where he/she has shown leadership talent,
strategic interface and decisions which he/she has taken shaken the industry
as a stalwart. Not for those who came from a industry background like
banking, PSU, Government organizations where they were working not even to
excel themselves leave aside the industry as a whole. And now for grabbing a
lucrative academic position after VIth Pay commission masking as if they
delivered some thing in industry which is dream for others. For these kind
of so called industry managers should not be given a ticket to enter in
academics. And top B-schools ask for PhD with these kind of self acclaimed
visionaries.
(xi) Dr. Moses Antony
Esteemed Members,
In my opinion, to teach for b-schools, industry and teaching
experiences with relevant qualifications must. If the teacher has the
research degrees it will help to do the profession well and
appropriately. So, research skill of the teacher always useful for
the students and institutions.
Moses
(xii) Prof. Subha BN
Dear all
I strongly agree with Prof. Datta on his view about the changing mindset of people towards academics. in fact PhD is not an eligibility criteria but a professional achievement and journey towards research. The very sanctity of PhD today is getting lost i guess. its not out of fashion or requirement one need to do Ph.D. in fact the knowledge one gains and imparts to students is not at all outcome of Ph.D but it is the urge that one possess towards learning and sharing.
People today are finding teaching as sunrise industry, its alarming. Teaching does not see the industry recession unlike other profession hence the changing attitude..... The nobleness of the profession should not be lost to rat race in the days to come...
(xiii) Prof. Soumya Sagiri
Hi All
Their theories on what they regarded as a thoroughly scientific basis (.
Examples include Henry R. Towne's "Science of management" in the 1890s,
Frederick Winslow Taylor's "The Principles of Scientific Management" (1911),
Frank and Lillian Gilbreth's "Applied motion study" (1917), and Henry L.
Gantt's charts (1910s). J. Duncan wrote the first college management
textbook in 1911. In 1912 Yoichi Ueno introduced Taylorism to Japan and
became first management consultant of the "Japanese-management style". His
son Ichiro Ueno pioneered Japanese quality assurance.
The first comprehensive theories of management appeared around 1920. The
Harvard Business School invented the Master of Business Administration
degree (MBA) in 1921. People like Henri Fayol (1841–1925) and Alexander
Church described the various branches of management and their
inter-relationships. In the early 20th century, people like Ordway Tead
(1891–1973), Walter Scott and J. Mooney applied the principles of psychology
to management, while other writers, such as Elton Mayo (1880–1949), Mary
Parker Follett (1868–1933), Chester Barnard (1886–1961), Max Weber
(1864–1920), Rensis Likert (1903–1981), and Chris Argyris (1923 - )
approached the phenomenon of management from a
sociological<https://mail.google.com/wiki/Sociology>perspective.
Peter Drucker (1909–2005) wrote one of the earliest books on applied
management: *Concept of the Corporation* (published in 1946). It resulted
from Alfred Sloan (chairman of General Motors until 1956) commissioning a
study of the organisation. Drucker went on to write 39 books, many in the
same vein.
H. Dodge, Ronald Fisher (1890–1962), and Thornton C. Fry introduced
statistical techniques into management-studies. In the 1940s, Patrick
Blackett combined these statistical theories with microeconomic theory and
gave birth to the science of operations research. Operations research,
sometimes known as "management science" (but distinct from Taylor's
scientific management), attempts to take a scientific approach to solving
management problems, particularly in the areas of logistics and operations.
Some of the more recent[developments include the Theory of Constraints,
management by objectives, re engineering, Six Sigma and various
information-technology-driven theories such as agile software development,
as well as group management theories such as Cog's Ladder.
As the general recognition of managers as a class solidified during the 20th
century and gave perceived practitioners of the art/science of management a
certain amount of prestige, so the way opened for popularised systems of
management ideas to peddle their wares. In this context many management fads
may have had more to do with pop psychology than with scientific theories of
management.
*All these experts are from Industry some are engineers, psychologists,
process or entrepreneurs inn the organisation used to do routine tasks and
operations, these theories are not born from faculty cabins they
experimented their knowledge, learning's on shop floors, industries, markets
and various other platforms. How drug undergoes various clinical trials and
finally reaches market with brand name and formulae.*
Management is learned better through experiencing the practical
knowledge and applied, then theories are build - added to literature - Any
theory for that matter is experienced first by the scientist or developer
used various other sources of material which are used practically than that
is converted into contemporary Theory. For that matter clerk job or peons
jobs they are people who might to do the same thing in different way with
less period time that is called efficiency and just in time. How come their
knowledge will be zero, obviously they do posses certain amount of skills
and knowledge.
I don't think any body will have zero knowledge, even the mentally
handicapped person to posses some knowledge through routine tasks and
observation. Business & Management is required to be learned from beggar,
street vendors, house wife, clerks, managers, CEO, entrepreneurs, lenders.
All these people stories are today case studies for us from street vendors
to film making.
Only thing in any profession a person need to learn, how competitive he is
supposed to be? flexible to change and adapt in this nature. Then the
ultimate thing to see the commitment of nature to us is to be patient enough
to reap the fruits. Need to accept the change and update our self
continuously.
Earlier, i am also a student, still i am a student as continuous learner : i
need everything from professors, but they can't teach practical
stuff sometimes more than a concept, then i need industry experts to learn
the reality, later when my exams are approaching i need professor again.
Every student is like this ----- Only solution is flexible enough to learn
history, practicality, emerging dynamics in the society to meet complete
student requirements.
This information is not to offend anybodies thought process; however we need
to change our attitude towards education system, student's requirements and
in holistic nature.
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