The Hon'ble Supreme Court's verdict is a bolt from the blue. It's implications are far reaching. How it is going to affect or impact PGDM colleges is not yet very clear.
Mushrooming must stop; regulation must improve; corruption must end. Hopefully, there will be light at the end of the tunnel.
Regards,
Prof. G. Surender Reddy
On Sat, Apr 27, 2013 at 3:22 PM, Prabhakar Waghodekar <waghodekar@rediffmail.com> wrote:
Dear All,
I have been used to a term "Technical and Management
Education" more than 2 decades. I fear switching back
Management to Universities is like reinventing the
wheel. We need to consider the issue very seriously.
Similar question is of MCA (under Egg and Sciences
faculty) and other courses like M Sc (Electronics or
IT or Computer Science). Universities are expected to
deal with pure sciences to give solid foundation to
engineering faculty (can I call it as applied
sciences?). The application cult does not play a
dominant role in sciences, and if they do so, I fear
the abstract knowledge will soon vanish. How many PhDs
in pure Mathematics, IITs and Universities have turned
out? Or in pure sciences? This is the reason why India
cannot move ahead, win noble prizes.
I sincerely think we need to seriously consider the
issue twice before we take a decision. Else we are
bound to have irreparable losses (already we are in
losses). The MBA prg implementation needs a different
spirit. In engineering too this spirit is missing. The
results are before us.
Regards.
Yours,
________________________________________
On Sat, 27 Apr 2013 14:49:23 +0530 wrotewrote:
>ONE MORE POINT IS ELIGIBILITY OF DISTANCE MBA......
--- On Thu, 25/4/13, narra vishnumurty
From: narra vishnumurtySubject: [MTC Global] Supreme court verdict on AICTE
control over MBA colleges
To: "mtc chennai"Cc: shesasu@yahoo.co.in
Date: Thursday, 25 April, 2013, 9:15 PM
Dear Sirs'
..... further, AICTE is not allowing doctorates in
business management without having MBA as pg
qualification....It is a fact that a good number of
good management professors do not have MBA....most of
them
hailed from allied subjects such as economics,
commerce, psychology and others.....
.... what is wrong in allowing doctorates in business
management without having MBA, when MBA is in itself a
highly multi-disciplinary subject....
.... for instance, scaling can be best done by people
with psychology background only....a good number of
scales/measuring instruments developed by holistic MBA
-Ph.Ds' won't have either a valid reliability nor
carry any item validity index..... in fact, a good of
those people don't have clear cut understanding at
all...
.... similarly, people with economics and statistics
background can
do more justice with regards to managerial economics
and business statistics than their counter parts....
....in the light of the above, severing relations with
AICTE is a revolutionary phenomenon only ....
....with best wishes..... Dr Vishnumurty Narra,
Hyderabad....
--- On Fri, 26/4/13, Prof. Bholanath Dutta
wrote:
From: Prof. Bholanath DuttaSubject: Re: [MTC Global] Supreme court verdict on
AICTE control over MBA colleges
To: "join_mtc"Mr. Ram Katlaâ€"Chapter Head: HyderabadDate: Friday, 26 April, 2013, 1:13 PM
Please find below a discussion held on the subject in
the year 2011 :
All India Council for Management
Education/ Ph.D. and Industry Experience
Trigger Question: Prof. Bholanath Dutta Dated
03.02.2011
Dear MTCians,
Greetings............
After
interacting with many academicians, corporate
executives, CEO/VP/P/MD
turned academicians, even direct interaction with
academicians from abroad,
one thing is very much clear that it is difficult to
change the fate of
management education, easily. Management programmes
are not like other
professional/vocational or academic courses, but the
tragedy is AICTE/UGC
mix it up and put everything in the same basket. Very
sorry figure! As per
UGC/AICTE recent guidelines, without Ph.D. , even a
top level CEO cannot
become professor in academics. And forget about
HOD/Director position.
Something very very unexpected... unrealistic and
harmful for management
education to grow.
It
is not a comparison between a pure academician and an
industry expert.
There needs to be balance of both. If a corporate
executive has Ph.D. and
come to academics....that may be best (eligibility +
competency). Even,
I
interacted with one professor from USA and his opinion
was also not
different from AICTE and fundamentally focus is on
Ph.D. Degree.
What
is required a separate body - AICME for management
programme instead of
AICTE. In AICTE primary focus is on technical
education. It would be really
good, if we prepare a report on this and send it to
our Hon. Education
Minister for his comment.
Request
opinion on this.........
Opinion of MTCians:
(i)Don’t tell me nowhere in
Dear Prof.
I
strongly believe this is our responsibility and if MTC
can voice out the
need for incepting such body, I am sure the ministry
will be more than
willing to listen. Moreover, now the foreign B-Schools
coming to India
set-up their shop, it is all the more imperative to
have a control mechanism
/ regulatory body.
Of-late
we did see reforms in school education... and *Why not
on management
education* *too..?* We must pursue this with
determination. We got to be
perhaps more scientific in building a strong case and
document it.
We
can have this submission as one of MTC's core missions
for the year 2011.
Let us all pledge to make this happen & I do not see
any reason why can not
we make it..!!
(ii) Prof D.A.R.Subramanyam, Principal:
Mahatma Gandhi College, Guntur
Dear Professor,
You
have raised a very apt and topic of relevance. The
AICTE especially , sorry to
mention, has spoiled the education scenario in this
country. Instead of
stabilising and improving technical and management
education. It has put the
technical education in doldrums. The AICTE or UGC
should leave the matters to
State Councils and Concerned Universities. There are
many ways that AICTE can
streamline both technical and management education in
this country.
1) The proposal that you have put forward is very
correct2) The managements
should discuss the matter at length and give
representation to the MHRD .3) The
local MP`s and MLA `s should rise the issue in
parliament and assembly
respectively about the performance of AICTE. And
unfortunately they don`t have
time to represent public issues.
4) Particularly the norms of the AICTE seem to
friendly to Big institutions
which admit hundreds and thousands of students. What
about the beginners and
the small managements?
5) The Vice-Chancellors and members in the committees
should spend some time on
this .But as i told in the above point who has time to
represent all these
issues of concern.?Everybody is busy in their own
personal Agenda.
I
really appreciate you for raising thought provoking
and relevant issues for
discussion.I wish MTC become more and more active and
are strengthened so that
the voices are seriously taken for consideration
(iii) Prof. Nityanandam, Asst. Prof. MVSR
Engg. College
Dear Prof,
I
was also teaching some 15 yrs back. I left the
industry after serving there
for 25 years. The reason, the student is taught theory
and no practical
requirement of the industry. In our days there was
practical training for the
students. Now they do not bother about it. Even in the
college practical
classes
the technician conducts the experiment/makes the model
for the students and
gets
paid by the student. no teacher responsible for the
practical can conduct an
experiment or run the lathe or other machines. This is
the state of affairs in
all most all the colleges in India.
The pity is we do not have any technical or
engineering educationist in the
country. All the qualifications prescribed or not
suitable for teaching. Most of
the doctorates cannot explain their own work to a
second person besides this
thesis being purely theoretical and not fit for any
practical use. These people
have not done a bit of research after wards. we also
teach so much theory and
Maths in particular which is not used by the student
later in his life. I have
forgotten all maths i was taught.
Our
engineering syllabus has to be re written with a view
to make engineers
useful to the industry and be more practical oriented.
the world is such a syllabus available. Let’s frameVignan'sInstituteof Technology& Aeronauticalone ourselves with no
pressure from any outsider. This reply
is not meant to criticize anybody but the system being
followed.
(iv)
Dr. R Rajan, MTCian
Dear Prof. Dutta
It
is really an apt and a realistic thought of yours,
will definitely raise the status
of Management Education in India.
Many
times it has been discussed that one should have a
passion for teaching and a
great deal industrial exposure.
AICTE,
has laid down that Management Faculty must have First
Class in MBA and Ph.D for
the post of Director and Professors. Does it mean that
those who have second
are not fit for Teaching. According to me it is the
Attitude matters a lot.
In
many Business Schools and Colleges, Directors and
Professors are highly
concentrate their attention in producing results to
satisfy their employers.
They are least bothered about the Industry
Expectation. Hence, faculty with a
blend of MBA Degree with Industry plus with a strong
attitude or mindset for
Teaching, can defenitely the reauired talents.
In
all our days, if one want to pursue his/her MBA
Programme he or she she must be
a graduate in any discipline with a minimum of two
years Industrial Experience
that too as a Middle Level Position through a common
entrance examination. That
is why we are all qualitatively and quantitatively
rich in the field of
Management and successfully contributes our best.
But
today there are too many entrance examinations and any
one can enter into MBA
Programme. Even a candidate who had secured negative
marks in the Entrance
Examination conducted by the States and the so called
Consortium of Management
of Management Institution.
Then,
how we can be able to produce talented heads to match
the Industry needs?
Henceforth,
AICTE must invite Top Notch Academicians while it is
in the process of
formulating policies pertaining to Management.
(v) Prof. K. Vizayakumar, Former Professor
and Head , Dept. of Industrial Engineering and
Management , Indian Institute of
Technology, Kharagpur.
Dear Prof. Dutta,
All
CEOs are not useful as teachers. They should have the
zeal for teaching
and have to be in touch with current developments in
management paradigms.
Generally, the qualification is mentioned as Ph. D. or
with equivalent
publications.
(vi)
Dr. G. Vanishree, Professor & HODfor MBA,Dabbawalla’s all the time. Concept basedEngineering.
(VITAE)Deshmukhi, Hyderabad.
Industrial
knowledge is practical ,professors have more
theoretical knowledge than
practical i feel that an industrial person teach some
practical experience ,
students can be more enlighten and have more grip to
put themselfs open for
corporates according to my opinion.
(vii) Prof. Soumya Sagiri
Hi All,
On
this topic i can share my thoughts and views.
1.
PhD is supposed to be provided to only those who has
done genuine
research or innovation or discovery or process
excellence. However in
today's world especially in Management field PhD are
offered with out proper
addition to literature or innovation or discovery or
process excellence
especially in India.
Even
a Doctorate can be offered to a person who wide
knowledge in one
practical area with above 10 years of experience.
2.
According to me to teach Management, PhD is not
required. Most of the
people who process PhD don't have practical exposure
to Industry, process,
sectors, cultures, structures, divisions and practical
exposure towards
these. Any person with sound knowledge in basics,
practical exposure in the
Industry, domain expertise is enough to teach the
students.
3.
Management is all about Industry not about PhD, just a
literature review,
survey, case or empirical research is not enough to
provide the
practicalities of the business , they need to
experience, feel the pressure,
targets, deadlines, real implementation of strategies,
standards operating
procedures, real innovative technologies, cultural
diversity, communication,
team dynamics, stages of growth, experiencing the
emerging sectors etc.
4.
Most of the people are forgetting the truth that PhD
is used for
enhancing individual knowledge to discover something
and provide new
theories, mechanisms and to improve domain expertise,
however it is not at
all related to the profession of being an excellent
academician. Most of the
professors struggle with ego problems in academics.
Academics lacking
transparency, proper escalation real education all
together just because
"One Degree Sake" - Real respect is missing ...
I
saw one movie long back ( I don't remember the name
now) - In the movie
they explained clearly when a person tries to learn
more and more expertise
they forget the basics so a Professor always need to
go back and learn the
basics (Common Sense) to bring real innovations and
creativity.
5.
I personally feel real academician is supposed to work
few years in
Industry and need to work in academics, later on again
after few years later
they need to go back to industry and come back with
new flow of knowledge to
train the students as emerging and skillful managers.
6.
The important aspect is most of the people are
pursuing PhD just for the
sake of obtain the degree, lucrative scale and respect
in society. But how
far they are really doing justice, how far they done
the research
research? OR simply accumulating the literature and
data, obtaining
PhD
doesn't lead to any where....other than exceptional
Universities.
7.
The AICTE or Govt need build such kind of rules where
the person should
certain years of Industrial experience or some kind
provisions need to be
created to obtain real industry exposure and a PhD are
eligible to become
professors. I saw even PhD holder don't know how to
write a basic article or
research paper, they convert student SIP reports as
papers. The Indian
education system lacking real skills, innovation and
creativity.
8.
As per my personal observations (again limited in
nature) most of the
professors busy in managing politics in academics,
reluctant to change and
they even don't know the basic Microsoft tools like
Word, Excel
& PowerPoint, if these minimum things are not known to
a professor-
how can
a student will meet real industry standards. Everybody
need to think
logically and practically - Especially professionals
in Management field
need to have industry exposure.
Kindly
revert for any further information or suggestions.
(viii) Prof. Subha BN
Hi
On
the view below, I differ in few aspects. Undoubtedly,
industry inputs do add
value to students. But please remember any concept
evolves over a theory and
enormous research goes into it and then it becomes
applied. The issue here definitely
is not to say whether the industry experts entering
into teaching is good or
bad. definitely its good, but the major concern to be
addressed is how does
teacher who are so called theoretical( according to
some) upgrade themselves to
address the needs of their customers i,e students, i
think teachers should also
go on sabbatical and take up some assignments in
companies for few months and
come back to teaching, this can become a part of their
teaching career. Apart
from this they can also have collaborations to take up
some research
assignments that could add value to their research..
PhDs could definitely be
enriching if the industry academic tie ups are done
with a holistic approach, in
fact we need to evolve ourselves as facilitators of
knowledge than teachers.
This
is my opinion with due respect to all other views.
(viii) Dr. Pradeep Kautish
Hello,
I
do agree with Prof. Shubha. Most of the time people
mislead by industry
experience. It has many facets what do you call
industry experience.
Industry experience is in which one has contributed to
knowledge bottom line
not profit bottom line only. Getting business or
manging business is one and
bringing innovation in business is second. Until and
unless one has not
devoted self to business from the point of view
innovation, his/her industry
experience is not valid for academic interface. He/she
is going to tell
about routine jobs, general aspects of business.
With
industry experience academia requires one who have
delivered to the
existing body of knowledge not a ordinary manager
worked in a PSU, bank or
some government organization and in some of the cases
private also. Where
he/she supposed to perform certain duties with dead
lines like a Clark or
an Assistant. No matter what was his/her designation
it can GM to MD but he
has earned his/her bread and butter only. Knowledge
wise exposure wise
he/she is almost ZERO.
I
have seen many these kind of so called self acclaimed
industry experts and
management stalwarts with 20-30 years experience in
industry. When they move
to class they narrate stories only for initial few
months, they mask in
front of student as if they were some big shot but
soon students get to know
their reality and give them negative feedback. But by
that time because of
spreading politics they fit themselves in some
administrative role to
sustain their job.
Thanks,
(viii) Dr. SN Ghosal
Dear
Prof. Dutta,
I
am entering this debate with a bit hesitation as I
hold contrarian view. I
think institutions r there to facilitate education and
not for imparting
education as is commonly believed. It is perception,
senses, faculties,
passion and perseverance that educate a person. It is
therefore the need is
to help honing these through institutions-management
and general..
With warm wishes
DR.S.N.GHOSAL
(ix) Capt. A Nagaraj
Folk,
I
thought the forum was to spread information and
learning. It seems we are
descending to taking pot shots at one another.
Academic
learning and expertise has its place and importance as
has industry
experience or for that matter experience of any kind.
It is not a zero sum
game.
It
is probably the reason why the IIM's keep talking
about, Mumbai
Examples include Henry R. Towne's “Science ofexperiential learning is the name of
the game and as experienced faculty is what is
expected of us.
Nice weekend!
Cheers..............
(x)
Dr. Pradeep Kautish
Dear Prof. Datta,
For
any position in academics for that matter PhD is not
at all required
anywhere, for Industry people but only condition is
he/she should be from a
strong industry background. Where he/she has shown
leadership talent,
strategic interface and decisions which he/she has
taken shaken the industry
as a stalwart. Not for those who came from a industry
background like
banking, PSU, Government organizations where they were
working not even to
excel themselves leave aside the industry as a whole.
And now for grabbing a
lucrative academic position after VIth Pay commission
masking as if they
delivered some thing in industry which is dream for
others. For these kind
of so called industry managers should not be given a
ticket to enter in
academics. And top B-schools ask for PhD with these
kind of self acclaimed
visionaries.
(xi) Dr. Moses Antony
Esteemed Members,
In my opinion, to teach for
b-schools, industry and teaching
experiences with relevant qualifications must. If the
teacher has the
research degrees it will help to do the profession
well and
appropriately. So, research skill of the teacher
always useful for
the students and institutions.
Moses
(xii) Prof. Subha BN
Dear
all
I
strongly agree with Prof. Datta on his view about the
changing mindset of
people towards academics. in fact PhD is not an
eligibility criteria but a
professional achievement and journey towards research.
The very sanctity of PhD
today is getting lost i guess. its not out of fashion
or requirement one need
to do Ph.D. in fact the knowledge one gains and
imparts to students is
not at all outcome of Ph.D but it is the urge that one
possess towards learning
and sharing.
People
today are finding teaching as sunrise industry, its
alarming. Teaching does not
see the industry recession unlike other profession
hence the changing
attitude..... The nobleness of the profession should
not be lost to rat race in
the days to come...
(xiii) Prof. Soumya Sagiri
Hi All
Their
theories on what they regarded as a thoroughly
scientific basis (.
management†in the 1890s,
Frederick Winslow Taylor's “The Principles of
Scientific Management†(1911),
Frank and Lillian Gilbreth's “Applied motion studyâ€(1917), and Henry L.degree (MBA) in 1921. People like Henri Fayol (1841â
Gantt's charts (1910s). J. Duncan wrote the first
college management
textbook in 1911. In 1912 Yoichi Ueno introduced
Taylorism to Japan and
became first management consultant of the "Japanese-
management
style". His
son Ichiro Ueno pioneered Japanese quality assurance.
The
first comprehensive theories of management appeared
around 1920. The
Harvard Business School invented the Master of
Business Administration
€"1925) and Alexander(1891â€"1973), Walter Scott and J. Mooney applied the
Church described the various branches of management
and their
inter-relationships. In the early 20th century, people
like Ordway Tead
principles of psychology(1880â€"1949), Mary
to management, while other writers, such as Elton Mayo
Parker Follett (1868â€"1933), Chester Barnard (1886â
€"1961), Max Weber
(1864â€"1920), Rensis Likert (1903â€"1981), and ChrisArgyris (1923 - )sociologicalpe
approached the phenomenon of management from a
rspective.
Peter
Drucker (1909â€"2005) wrote one of the earliest bookson appliedDodge, Ronald Fisher (1890â€"1962), and Thornton C.
management: *Concept of the Corporation* (published in
1946). It resulted
from Alfred Sloan (chairman of General Motors until
1956) commissioning a
study of the organisation. Drucker went on to write 39
books, many in the
same vein.
H.need everything from professors, but they can’tFry introduced
statistical techniques into management-studies. In the
1940s, Patrick
Blackett combined these statistical theories with
microeconomic theory and
gave birth to the science of operations research.
Operations research,
sometimes known as "management science" (but distinct
from Taylor's
scientific management), attempts to take a scientific
approach to solving
management problems, particularly in the areas of
logistics and operations.
Some
of the more recent[developments include the Theory of
Constraints,
management by objectives, re engineering, Six Sigma
and various
information-technology-driven theories such as agile
software development,
as well as group management theories such as Cog's
Ladder.
As
the general recognition of managers as a class
solidified during the 20th
century and gave perceived practitioners of the
art/science of management a
certain amount of prestige, so the way opened for
popularised systems of
management ideas to peddle their wares. In this
context many management fads
may have had more to do with pop psychology than with
scientific theories of
management.
*All
these experts are from Industry some are engineers,
psychologists,
process or entrepreneurs inn the organisation used to
do routine tasks and
operations, these theories are not born from faculty
cabins they
experimented their knowledge, learning's on shop
floors, industries, markets
and various other platforms. How drug undergoes
various clinical trials and
finally reaches market with brand name and formulae.*
Management
is learned better through experiencing the practical
knowledge and applied, then theories are build - added
to literature - Any
theory for that matter is experienced first by the
scientist or developer
used various other sources of material which are used
practically than that
is converted into contemporary Theory. For that matter
clerk job or peons
jobs they are people who might to do the same thing in
different way with
less period time that is called efficiency and just in
time. How come their
knowledge will be zero, obviously they do posses
certain amount of skills
and knowledge.
I
don't think any body will have zero knowledge, even
the mentally
handicapped person to posses some knowledge through
routine tasks and
observation. Business & Management is required to be
learned from
beggar,
street vendors, house wife, clerks, managers, CEO,
entrepreneurs, lenders.
All these people stories are today case studies for us
from street
vendors
to film making.
Only
thing in any profession a person need to learn, how
competitive he is
supposed to be? flexible to change and adapt in this
nature. Then the
ultimate thing to see the commitment of nature to us
is to be patient enough
to reap the fruits. Need to accept the change and
update our self
continuously.
Earlier,
i am also a student, still i am a student as
continuous learner : i
teach practicalstudent’s requirements and
stuff sometimes more than a concept, then i need
industry experts to learn
the reality, later when my exams are approaching i
need professor again.
Every student is like this ----- Only solution is
flexible enough to learn
history, practicality, emerging dynamics in the
society to meet complete
student requirements.
This
information is not to offend anybodies thought
process; however we need
to change our attitude towards education system,
in holistic nature.
On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Krishnamurthy M.G.
wrote:On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 12:48 PM, shakti Bajpai id="136708971921638000"> onmouseover="showSuggestions(event,'136708971921638000
Dear all,
Has the time come for the constitution by the
Government, of a specalised regulatory body for our
domain, similar to AICTE, say, AICBE (All Indian
Council for Business Education) or AICME ((All Indian
Council forManagement Education)?
Regards.
Krishnamurthy
','correctspell')"
onmouseout="hideDiv('correctspell')"
href="javascript:undefined;">Awasthiwrote:
Dear sir
I am interested to know more on this , specially its
long term impact on management institutes which are
already affiliated by AICTE
Regards
Shakti
On Apr 26, 2013 11:34 AM, "paramesh paramam"
to the onmouseover="showSuggestions(event,'136708971922486000wrote:
-
Supreme court has given a land mark judgement that
AICTE cannot regulate
MBA courses and management programme offered by
universities and
colleges affiliated to universities.
This judgement will have serious implications on
management education in
the country.
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J.N.N.Col. of Engg. Shimoga-577204 Karnataka-India
Welcome to MBA
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Dr P H Waghodekar
Advisor (HR), IBS & PME (PG)
Marathwada Institute of Technology,
Aurangabad: 431028 (Maharashtra) INDIA.
(O) 02402375113 (M) 7276661925
E-Mail: waghodekar@rediffmail.com
Website: www.mit.asia
Engineering & Management Education: An Engine of Prosperity.
Classroom teaching must match with Boardroom needs! --MTC GLOBAL- Educate, Empower, Elevate
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MTC GLOBAL- Educate, Empower, Elevate
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