I feel that the SC has made it clear, that the degree offered by a University shall apply to the academic domain while the diploma offered by the professional institutions shall apply in the professional domain.
The implications in my mind has something to do with the way the Industry and the Professions view these different types of education and their emphasis. Academic qualifications certainly are connected with intellectual effort and thinking abilities of a higher order while professional education has emphasis on the principles that have a bearing on professional practice and practical decision making.
One way to see how a Corporate would perceive and use academic qualification. They are best applicable at the entry point as trainees and fresh entrants. Later on in the career, a corporate would want more professionally trained people as employees.
Another implication is the clear pursuit of academic qualification being restricted to the academic profession which requires higher qualifications such as doctorates to be successful as a academics
Likewise professional upgrades of middle level and higher level professionals would be the sole preserve of the professional institutions. Now when it comes to a Business education, one can look at it as an academic pursuit or alternately as a professional pursuit. A person could opt for academic education as an entry level qualification and later on pursue a professional upgrade from a professional institutions.
I have come across a case of a University not recognizing Business education qualification from even the best IIM as being fit to teach a PG level MBA program of the University. On the other hand, should an IIM recognize the MBA degree from a University as being adequate to teach a professional business program of say an IIM.
Who is to decide? For the job, the corporate- the best man who delivers the goods. What about teaching? It may become the prerogative of an Institution to choose whoever they think fit governed by the applicable rules of the University or the Professional Body.
Best Regards,
K.Paranjpe
On Fri, 26 Apr 2013 15:04:15 +0530 wrote
>Dear Prof Dutta,
I beg to differ with you on few aspects....
1) AICTE is not needed because the Hon'ble Supreme Court has felt that
MBA degree is imparted by an University which is under UGC. Hence
separate AICTE approval is not necessary.
But in case of PGDM, it has not said so as the PGDM should be under AICTE
2) For academics, PhD is a must. I do not say that you learn a lot by
doing PhD but is is a fact that PhD is actually an orientation of a
teacher involved with PG teaching towards research.....The analytical
bent of mind is more prominent while he has completed PhD.......Of
course there are exceptions as well..
3) I again reiterate that Management Education in this country is not
doing well becuase in many of the places, there is no clarity of
thought...in most of the places people at the helm of affairs simply
try to impress the management by show-off or gimmick...management is
one place where this does not work....
I hope the earlier we understand this it will be better.
Regards,
Dr P R Bhattacharyya
On 4/26/13, Prof. Bholanath Dutta
> Please find below a discussion held on the subject in the year 2011 :
>
> *All India Council for Management Education/ Ph.D. and Industry Experience*
>
> *Trigger Question: Prof. Bholanath Dutta Dated 03.02.2011*
>
> Dear MTCians,
>
> Greetings............
>
> After interacting with many academicians, corporate executives, CEO/VP/P/MD
> turned academicians, even direct interaction with academicians from abroad,
> one thing is very much clear that it is difficult to change the fate of
> management education, easily. Management programmes are not like other
> professional/vocational or academic courses, but the tragedy is AICTE/UGC
> mix it up and put everything in the same basket. Very sorry figure! As per
> UGC/AICTE recent guidelines, without Ph.D. ,even a top level CEO cannot
> become professor in academics. And forget about HOD/Director position.
> Something very very unexpected... unrealistic and harmful for management
> education to grow.
>
> It is not a comparison between a pure academician and an industry expert.
> There needs to be balance of both. If a corporate executive has Ph.D. and
> come to academics....that may be best (eligibility + competency). Even, I
> interacted with one professor from USA and his opinion was also not
> different from AICTE and fundamentally focus is on Ph.D. Degree.
>
> What is required a separate body - AICME for management programme instead
> of
> AICTE. In AICTE primary focus is on technical education. It would be really
> good, if we prepare a report on this and send it to our Hon. Education
> Minister for his comment.
>
> Request opinion on this.........
>
> *Opinion of MTCians:*
>
> *(i) Mr. Ram Katla—Chapter Head: Hyderabad*
>
> Dear Prof.
>
> I strongly believe this is our responsibility and if MTC can voice out the
> need for incepting such body, I am sure the ministry will be more than
> willing to listen. Moreover, now the foreign B-Schools coming to India
> set-up their shop, it is all the more imperative to have a control
> mechanism
> / regulatory body.
>
> Of-late we did see reforms in school education... and *Why not on
> management
> education* *too..?* We must pursue this with determination. We got to be
> perhaps more scientific in building a strong case and document it.
>
> We can have this submission as one of MTC's core missions for the year
> 2011.
> Let us all pledge to make this happen & I do not see any reason why can not
> we make it..!!
>
> *(ii) Prof D.A.R.Subramanyam, Principal: Mahatma Gandhi College, Guntur*
>
> Dear Professor,
>
> You have raised a very apt and topic of relevance. The AICTE especially ,
> sorry to mention, has spoiled the education scenario in this country.
> Instead of stabilising and improving technical and management education. It
> has put the technical education in doldrums. The AICTE or UGC should leave
> the matters to State Councils and Concerned Universities. There are many
> ways that AICTE can streamline both technical and management education in
> this country.
> 1) The proposal that you have put forward is very correct2) The managements
> should discuss the matter at length and give representation to the MHRD .3)
> The local MP`s and MLA `s should rise the issue in parliament and assembly
> respectively about the performance of AICTE. And unfortunately they don`t
> have time to represent public issues.
> 4) Particularly the norms of the AICTE seem to friendly to Big institutions
> which admit hundreds and thousands of students. What about the beginners
> and the small managements?
> 5) The Vice-Chancellors and members in the committees should spend some
> time on this .But as i told in the above point who has time to represent
> all these issues of concern.?Everybody is busy in their own personal
> Agenda.
>
> I really appreciate you for raising thought provoking and relevant issues
> for discussion.I wish MTC become more and more active and are strengthened
> so that the voices are seriously taken for consideration
>
> *(iii) Prof. Nityanandam, Asst. Prof. MVSR Engg. College*
>
> Dear Prof,
>
> I was also teaching some 15 yrs back. I left the industry after serving
> there
> for 25 years. The reason, the student is taught theory and no practical
> requirement of the industry. In our days there was practical training for
> the
> students. Now they do not bother about it. Even in the college practical
> classes
> the technician conducts the experiment/makes the model for the students and
> gets
> paid by the student. no teacher responsible for the practical can conduct
> an
> experiment or run the lathe or other machines. This is the state of affairs
> in
> all most all the colleges in India.
> The pity is we do not have any technical or engineering educationist in the
> country. All the qualifications prescribed or not suitable for teaching.
> Most of
> the doctorates cannot explain their own work to a second person besides
> this
> thesis being purely theoretical and not fit for any practical use. These
> people
> have not done a bit of research after wards. we also teach so much theory
> and
> Maths in particular which is not used by the student later in his life. I
> have
> forgotten all maths i was taught.
>
> Our engineering syllabus has to be re written with a view to make engineers
> useful to the industry and be more practical oriented. Don't tell me
> nowhere in
> the world is such a syllabus available. Let's frame one ourselves with no
> pressure from any outsider. This reply is not meant to criticize anybody
> but the system being followed.
>
> *(iv) Dr. R Rajan, MTCian*
>
> Dear Prof. Dutta
>
> It is really an apt and a realistic thought of yours, will definitely raise
> the status of Management Education in India.
>
> Many times it has been discussed that one should have a passion for
> teaching and a great deal industrial exposure.
>
> AICTE, has laid down that Management Faculty must have First Class in MBA
> and Ph.D for the post of Director and Professors. Does it mean that those
> who have second are not fit for Teaching. According to me it is the
> Attitude matters a lot.
>
> In many Business Schools and Colleges, Directors and Professors are highly
> concentrate their attention in producing results to satisfy their
> employers. They are least bothered about the Industry Expectation. Hence,
> faculty with a blend of MBA Degree with Industry plus with a strong
> attitude or mindset for Teaching, can defenitely the reauired talents.
>
> In all our days, if one want to pursue his/her MBA Programme he or she she
> must be a graduate in any discipline with a minimum of two years Industrial
> Experience that too as a Middle Level Position through a common entrance
> examination. That is why we are all qualitatively and quantitatively rich
> in the field of Management and successfully contributes our best.
>
> But today there are too many entrance examinations and any one can enter
> into MBA Programme. Even a candidate who had secured negative marks in the
> Entrance Examination conducted by the States and the so called Consortium
> of Management of Management Institution.
>
> Then, how we can be able to produce talented heads to match the Industry
> needs?
>
> Henceforth, AICTE must invite Top Notch Academicians while it is in the
> process of formulating policies pertaining to Management.
>
> *(v) Prof. K. Vizayakumar, Former Professor and Head ,Dept. of Industrial
> Engineering and Management ,Indian Institute of Technology, Kharagpur.*
>
> Dear Prof. Dutta,
>
> All CEOs are not useful as teachers. They should have the zeal for teaching
> and have to be in touch with current developments in management paradigms.
> Generally, the qualification is mentioned as Ph. D. or with equivalent
> publications.
>
> (vi) Dr. G. Vanishree, Professor & HOD for MBA, Vignan's Institute of
> Technology & Aeronautical Engineering. (VITAE)Deshmukhi, Hyderabad.
>
> Industrial knowledge is practical ,professors have more theoretical
> knowledge than practical i feel that an industrial person teach some
> practical experience ,students can be more enlighten and have more grip to
> put themselfs open for corporates according to my opinion.
>
>
>
> *(vii) Prof. Soumya Sagiri*
>
> Hi All,
>
> On this topic i can share my thoughts and views.
>
> 1. PhD is supposed to be provided to only those who has done genuine
> research or innovation or discovery or process excellence. However in
> today's world especially in Management field PhD are offered with out
> proper
> addition to literature or innovation or discovery or process excellence
> especially in India.
>
> Even a Doctorate can be offered to a person who wide knowledge in one
> practical area with above 10 years of experience.
>
> 2. According to me to teach Management, PhD is not required. Most of the
> people who process PhD don't have practical exposure to Industry, process,
> sectors, cultures, structures, divisions and practical exposure towards
> these. Any person with sound knowledge in basics, practical exposure in the
> Industry, domain expertise is enough to teach the students.
>
> 3. Management is all about Industry not about PhD, just a literature
> review,
> survey, case or empirical research is not enough to provide the
> practicalities of the business ,they need to experience, feel the
> pressure,
> targets, deadlines, real implementation of strategies, standards operating
> procedures, real innovative technologies, cultural diversity,
> communication,
> team dynamics, stages of growth, experiencing the emerging sectors etc.
>
> 4. Most of the people are forgetting the truth that PhD is used for
> enhancing individual knowledge to discover something and provide new
> theories, mechanisms and to improve domain expertise, however it is not at
> all related to the profession of being an excellent academician. Most of
> the
> professors struggle with ego problems in academics. Academics lacking
> transparency, proper escalation real education all together just because
> "One Degree Sake" - Real respect is missing ...
>
> I saw one movie long back ( I don't remember the name now) - In the movie
> they explained clearly when a person tries to learn more and more expertise
> they forget the basics so a Professor always need to go back and learn the
> basics (Common Sense) to bring real innovations and creativity.
>
> 5. I personally feel real academician is supposed to work few years in
> Industry and need to work in academics, later on again after few years
> later
> they need to go back to industry and come back with new flow of knowledge
> to
> train the students as emerging and skillful managers.
>
> 6. The important aspect is most of the people are pursuing PhD just for the
> sake of obtain the degree, lucrative scale and respect in society. But how
> far they are really doing justice, how far they done the research
> research? OR simply accumulating the literature and data, obtaining PhD
> doesn't lead to any where....other than exceptional Universities.
>
> 7. The AICTE or Govt need build such kind of rules where the person should
> certain years of Industrial experience or some kind provisions need to be
> created to obtain real industry exposure and a PhD are eligible to become
> professors. I saw even PhD holder don't know how to write a basic article
> or
> research paper, they convert student SIP reports as papers. The Indian
> education system lacking real skills, innovation and creativity.
>
> 8. As per my personal observations (again limited in nature) most of the
> professors busy in managing politics in academics, reluctant to change and
> they even don't know the basic Microsoft tools like Word, Excel
> & PowerPoint, if these minimum things are not known to a professor- how
> can
> a student will meet real industry standards. Everybody need to think
> logically and practically - Especially professionals in Management field
> need to have industry exposure.
>
> Kindly revert for any further information or suggestions.
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *(viii) Prof. Subha BN*
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> On the view below, I differ in few aspects. Undoubtedly, industry inputs do
> add value to students. But please remember any concept evolves over a
> theory and enormous research goes into it and then it becomes applied. The
> issue here definitely is not to say whether the industry experts entering
> into teaching is good or bad. definitely its good, but the major concern to
> be addressed is how does teacher who are so called theoretical( according
> to some) upgrade themselves to address the needs of their customers i,e
> students, i think teachers should also go on sabbatical and take up some
> assignments in companies for few months and come back to teaching, this can
> become a part of their teaching career. Apart from this they can also have
> collaborations to take up some research assignments that could add value to
> their research.. PhDs could definitely be enriching if the industry
> academic tie ups are done with a holistic approach, in fact we need to
> evolve ourselves as facilitators of knowledge than teachers.
>
> This is my opinion with due respect to all other views.
>
> *(viii) Dr. Pradeep Kautish*
>
> Hello,
>
> I do agree with Prof. Shubha. Most of the time people mislead by industry
> experience. It has many facets what do you call industry experience.
> Industry experience is in which one has contributed to knowledge bottom
> line
> not profit bottom line only. Getting business or manging business is one
> and
> bringing innovation in business is second. Until and unless one has not
> devoted self to business from the point of view innovation, his/her
> industry
> experience is not valid for academic interface. He/she is going to tell
> about routine jobs, general aspects of business.
>
> With industry experience academia requires one who have delivered to the
> existing body of knowledge not a ordinary manager worked in a PSU, bank or
> some government organization and in some of the cases private also. Where
> he/she supposed to perform certain duties with dead lines like a Clark or
> an Assistant. No matter what was his/her designation it can GM to MD but he
> has earned his/her bread and butter only. Knowledge wise exposure wise
> he/she is almost ZERO.
>
> I have seen many these kind of so called self acclaimed industry experts
> and
> management stalwarts with 20-30 years experience in industry. When they
> move
> to class they narrate stories only for initial few months, they mask in
> front of student as if they were some big shot but soon students get to
> know
> their reality and give them negative feedback. But by that time because of
> spreading politics they fit themselves in some administrative role to
> sustain their job.
>
> Thanks,
>
> *(viii) Dr. SN Ghosal*
>
> Dear Prof. Dutta,
>
> I am entering this debate with a bit hesitation as I hold contrarian view.
> I
> think institutions r there to facilitate education and not for imparting
> education as is commonly believed. It is perception, senses, faculties,
> passion and perseverance that educate a person. It is therefore the need is
> to help honing these through institutions-management and general..
> With warm wishes
>
> DR.S.N.GHOSAL
>
> *(ix) Capt. A Nagaraj*
>
> Folk,
>
> I thought the forum was to spread information and learning. It seems we are
> descending to taking pot shots at one another.
>
> Academic learning and expertise has its place and importance as has
> industry
> experience or for that matter experience of any kind. It is not a zero sum
> game.
>
> It is probably the reason why the IIM's keep talking about, Mumbai
> Dabbawalla's all the time. Concept based experiential learning is the name
> of
> the game and as experienced faculty is what is expected of us.
> Nice weekend!
>
> Cheers..............
>
> *(x) Dr. Pradeep Kautish*
>
> Dear Prof. Datta,
>
> For any position in academics for that matter PhD is not at all required
> anywhere, for Industry people but only condition is he/she should be from a
> strong industry background. Where he/she has shown leadership talent,
> strategic interface and decisions which he/she has taken shaken the
> industry
> as a stalwart. Not for those who came from a industry background like
> banking, PSU, Government organizations where they were working not even to
> excel themselves leave aside the industry as a whole. And now for grabbing
> a
> lucrative academic position after VIth Pay commission masking as if they
> delivered some thing in industry which is dream for others. For these kind
> of so called industry managers should not be given a ticket to enter in
> academics. And top B-schools ask for PhD with these kind of self acclaimed
> visionaries.
>
> *(xi) Dr. Moses Antony*
>
> Esteemed Members,
>
> In my opinion, to teach for b-schools, industry and teaching
> experiences with relevant qualifications must. If the teacher has the
> research degrees it will help to do the profession well and
> appropriately. So, research skill of the teacher always useful for
> the students and institutions.
>
> Moses
>
> *(xii) Prof. Subha BN*
>
> Dear all
>
> I strongly agree with Prof. Datta on his view about the changing mindset of
> people towards academics. in fact PhD is not an eligibility criteria but a
> professional achievement and journey towards research. The very sanctity of
> PhD today is getting lost i guess. its not out of fashion or requirement
> one need to do Ph.D. in fact the knowledge one gains and imparts to
> students is not at all outcome of Ph.D but it is the urge that one possess
> towards learning and sharing.
>
> People today are finding teaching as sunrise industry, its alarming.
> Teaching does not see the industry recession unlike other profession hence
> the changing attitude..... The nobleness of the profession should not be
> lost to rat race in the days to come...
>
>
>
> *(xiii) Prof. Soumya Sagiri*
>
> Hi All
>
> Their theories on what they regarded as a thoroughly scientific basis (.
> Examples include Henry R. Towne's "Science of management" in the 1890s,
> Frederick Winslow Taylor's "The Principles of Scientific Management"
> (1911),
> Frank and Lillian Gilbreth's "Applied motion study" (1917), and Henry L.
> Gantt's charts (1910s). J. Duncan wrote the first college management
> textbook in 1911. In 1912 Yoichi Ueno introduced Taylorism to Japan and
> became first management consultant of the "Japanese-management style". His
> son Ichiro Ueno pioneered Japanese quality assurance.
>
> The first comprehensive theories of management appeared around 1920. The
> Harvard Business School invented the Master of Business Administration
> degree (MBA) in 1921. People like Henri Fayol (1841–1925) and Alexander
> Church described the various branches of management and their
> inter-relationships. In the early 20th century, people like Ordway Tead
> (1891–1973), Walter Scott and J. Mooney applied the principles of
> psychology
> to management, while other writers, such as Elton Mayo (1880–1949), Mary
> Parker Follett (1868–1933), Chester Barnard (1886–1961), Max Weber
> (1864–1920), Rensis Likert (1903–1981), and Chris Argyris (1923 - )
> approached the phenomenon of management from a
> sociological
>
>
> Peter Drucker (1909–2005) wrote one of the earliest books on applied
> management: *Concept of the Corporation* (published in 1946). It resulted
> from Alfred Sloan (chairman of General Motors until 1956) commissioning a
> study of the organisation. Drucker went on to write 39 books, many in the
> same vein.
>
> H. Dodge, Ronald Fisher (1890–1962), and Thornton C. Fry introduced
> statistical techniques into management-studies. In the 1940s, Patrick
> Blackett combined these statistical theories with microeconomic theory and
> gave birth to the science of operations research. Operations research,
> sometimes known as "management science" (but distinct from Taylor's
> scientific management), attempts to take a scientific approach to solving
> management problems, particularly in the areas of logistics and operations.
>
> Some of the more recent[developments include the Theory of Constraints,
> management by objectives, re engineering, Six Sigma and various
> information-technology-driven theories such as agile software development,
> as well as group management theories such as Cog's Ladder.
>
> As the general recognition of managers as a class solidified during the
> 20th
> century and gave perceived practitioners of the art/science of management a
> certain amount of prestige, so the way opened for popularised systems of
> management ideas to peddle their wares. In this context many management
> fads
> may have had more to do with pop psychology than with scientific theories
> of
> management.
>
> *All these experts are from Industry some are engineers, psychologists,
> process or entrepreneurs inn the organisation used to do routine tasks and
> operations, these theories are not born from faculty cabins they
> experimented their knowledge, learning's on shop floors, industries,
> markets
> and various other platforms. How drug undergoes various clinical trials and
> finally reaches market with brand name and formulae.*
>
> Management is learned better through experiencing the practical
> knowledge and applied, then theories are build - added to literature - Any
> theory for that matter is experienced first by the scientist or developer
> used various other sources of material which are used practically than that
> is converted into contemporary Theory. For that matter clerk job or peons
> jobs they are people who might to do the same thing in different way with
> less period time that is called efficiency and just in time. How come their
> knowledge will be zero, obviously they do posses certain amount of skills
> and knowledge.
>
> I don't think any body will have zero knowledge, even the mentally
> handicapped person to posses some knowledge through routine tasks and
> observation. Business & Management is required to be learned from beggar,
> street vendors, house wife, clerks, managers, CEO, entrepreneurs, lenders.
> All these people stories are today case studies for us from street vendors
> to film making.
>
> Only thing in any profession a person need to learn, how competitive he is
> supposed to be? flexible to change and adapt in this nature. Then the
> ultimate thing to see the commitment of nature to us is to be patient
> enough
> to reap the fruits. Need to accept the change and update our self
> continuously.
>
> Earlier, i am also a student, still i am a student as continuous learner :
> i
> need everything from professors, but they can't teach practical
> stuff sometimes more than a concept, then i need industry experts to learn
> the reality, later when my exams are approaching i need professor again.
> Every student is like this ----- Only solution is flexible enough to learn
> history, practicality, emerging dynamics in the society to meet complete
> student requirements.
>
> This information is not to offend anybodies thought process; however we
> need
> to change our attitude towards education system, student's requirements and
> in holistic nature.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Krishnamurthy M.G.
>
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Has the time come for the constitution by the Government, of a specalised
>> regulatory body for our domain, similar to AICTE, say, AICBE (All Indian
>> Council for Business Education) or AICME ((All Indian Council
>> forManagement
>> Education)?
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>> Krishnamurthy
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 26, 2013 at 12:48 PM, shakti Bajpai Awasthi <
>> shreyanshi007@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear sir
>>> I am interested to know more on this ,specially its long term impact on
>>> management institutes which are already affiliated by AICTE
>>> Regards
>>> Shakti
>>> On Apr 26, 2013 11:34 AM, "paramesh paramam"
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Supreme court has given a land mark judgement that AICTE cannot
>>>> regulate
>>>> MBA courses and management programme offered by universities and
>>>> colleges affiliated to universities.
>>>> This judgement will have serious implications on management education
>>>> in
>>>> the country.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> MTC GLOBAL- Educate, Empower, Elevate
>>>> ---
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> - Dr.M.G.Krishnamurthy
>> Director-Management Studies
>> J.N.N.Col. of Engg.
>> Shimoga-577204
>> Karnataka-India
>>
>> * Welcome to MBA @ JNNCE-Shimoga!***
>>
>> * …*Moulding Careers with Character & Competence!
>>
>> --
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>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *EDUCATE, EMPOWER, ELEVATE*
> *Prof. Bholanath Dutta*
> Founder, President & Convener
> MTC Global: ISO 9001: 2008 Certified
> Participant: United Nations Global Compact
> **Website: www.mtcglobal.org/ www.knowledgecafe.org
> president@mtcglobal.org
> president@knowledgecafe.org
> Cell: +91 96323 18178
>
> --
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