Re: [cameroon_politics] Southern Cameroons: Suing Britain

Gentlemen,
The Chair of SCAPO merely re-echoed our own resolve of this morning.
This issue no longer belongs here.
Thanks for comprehension.
MOD

On 7/1/13, Chief Charles A.Taku <charto_us@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dr Ngumne,
> Thanks so much. I am doing some serious research which I will bring to your
> attention. Dr Tumasang  has neither read nor understood the Mau Mau case
> which I do by virtue to proximity and knowledge of the actors. The very
> British laws he is citing as a bar to our case were the object of legal
> challenge by the Mau Mau on the grounds that other British laws and
> jurisprudence from the European courts of human rights barred Britain from
> invoking those laws to conceal egregious human rights violations. Similarly
> if the manner and manipulations by which Britain terminated the trust  is
> directly linked to the egregious violations we are victims of, our matter
> can be brought against Britain and may end up in the European Court of Human
> Rights.  There is body of jurisprudence of the European Court on Human
> Rights that has overturned British law on several issues on the basis of the
> interpretation of international conventions and treaty law.
> I do not want us to sound like several lawyers who discouraged the Mau Mau
> case on the same grounds like some I have read on the net for some time
> now.  Britain as expected raised many of the challenges raised even here but
> those challenges collapsed once it was demonstrated that she intended to
> shield herself using laws and edits that facilitated the violations in the
> first place.  That ruling is consistent with the judgments of the European
> Court on Human Rights on similar issues which are available.
>
>  Chief C.Taku
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: ngwang gumne <t164ngng@gmx.co.uk>
> To: ambasbay@googlegroups.com
> Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 2:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [cameroon_politics] Southern Cameroons: Suing Britain
>
> Chief Taku,
>
> From a lay man's position, I see Dr. Tumasang's young experience, taking him
> principally to uncomfortable extremes for clients.
> My suggestion will continue to be that he should limit his academic
> excercise to  the legal group. You people should argue it within that circle
> and we on the lay people's side, should be given the consensus result.
>
> ngwang gumne
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: Chief Charles A.Taku
>>Sent: 06/30/13 11:47 PM
>>To: cameroon_politics@yahoogroups.com, camnetwork@yahoogroups.com,
>> ambasbay@googlegroups.com
>>Subject: Re: [cameroon_politics] Southern Cameroons: Suing Britain
>>Ntemfac / Dr Tumasang,
>>My opinion on this and related postings is that like senior counsel Paul
>> Muite, many lawyers pontificated on the possibility of the Mau Mau case
>> surviving in the British Courts for want of precedent. Well, like all good
>> lawyers, he and his team were bent to setting that precedent and won.
>> The Southern Cameroons case has several variations. Those who feel
>> strongly about the strength of our case as I do will pursue it. It is now
>> clear  that Dr Tumasang for all the reasons he has presented here and
>> elsewhere, he is unwilling to pursue the matter any further. We are left
>> to see what actions he will take as the Hon Attorney General of Ambazonia
>> to lead the Ambazonia to freedom.  He can now take off time from these
>> public postings to do just that.
>>Chief C.Taku
>>
>>
>>From: Tumasang Martin <tumasangm@hotmail.com>
>>To: "camnetwork@yahoogroups.com" <camnetwork@yahoogroups.com>;
>> "ambasbay@googlegroups.com" <ambasbay@googlegroups.com>
>>Cc: "cameroon_politics@yahoogroups.com"
>> <cameroon_politics@yahoogroups.com>
>>Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 3:33 PM
>>Subject: [cameroon_politics] Southern Cameroons: Suing Britain
>>
>>Hi Prophet Ntemfac,the Germans were very hard on Cameroonians including
>> Southern Cameroonians. They actually fought with my Bafut people and
>> subjected my people to various brutalities. I am not sure of the British
>> Brutalities and human right violations and the scale of it in Southern
>> Cameroons candidly. Would be interesting to know of examples of the
>> actual physical brutalities by the British as was the case in Kenya. On
>> the breach of the trusteeship agreement, that is another story that stands
>> alone with its own peculiar problems including but not limited to the
>> fact in law, it is generally not possible to claim rights or obligations
>> from a lapsed instrument like the trusteeship agreement unless some
>> special arrangement was made for certain rights or obligations to survive
>> or there is a way that they can be construed to have survived . The
>> Bulgaria vs Isreal case at the ICJ confirmed this. Even if the Bulgaria vs
>> Isreal case is considered as
> Sui Generis by some,  the Northern Cameroon case also confirmed this. The
> case of Barcelona Traction Preliminary Objections at the ICJ although
> decided in a different way, in principle confirmed this, and in the case of
> Fisheries Jurisdiction, UK vs Iceland, it was said that is principle is
> necessarily not wrong although this case was not decided based on the
> principle. I know arbitration clauses can survive the lapse of an agreement
> or instrument based on what we call the principle of compétence de la
> competence  or what is know in German as  Kompetenz-kompetenz but this does
> not apply here for we are beneficiaries and not even parties to the
> trusteeship agreement. The agreement is between the UN and the UK and even
> UN members cannot sue Britain based on it as shown in the South West Africa
> case in the ICJ.
>>Although on the surface it is popular for the gallery to say sue Britain,
>> once you get down to the details, how do you cross this initial barrier?.
>> Never mind other problems of getting a local court in the UK to accept
>> jurisdiction for such a case which is a serious problem by itself. I am
>> just concerned for now with the fact that the trusteeship instrument has
>> lapsed. I do not accept something just because everyone accepts it and
>> think it is the case. Torture, murders, etc cannot be part of diplomacy or
>> foreign affairs of a state and such crimes against humanity are in a
>> different category to breach of a trusteeship agreement.
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Tumasang
>>
>>> To: ambasbay@googlegroups.com> CC: cameroon_politics@yahoogroups.com;
>>> camnetwork@yahoogroups.com> From: ntemfacnchwete@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 30
>>> Jun 2013 13:22:50 +0200> Subject: [camnetwork] Re: Southern Cameroons:
>>> Mau Mau Victory: Old Empires Shiver, but Whether There is Enough in
>>> Southern Cameroons (e.g. torture, detentions, unorthodox interrogations
>>> etc.) for Successful Legal Claims Against Britain is Another Matter
>>> Altogether.> > Dear Dr Tumasang,> Human rights violations - brutalities -
>>> is one issue.> Violations of the Trusteeship Statutes is a different
>>> issue.> Do well to stop looking for excuses and get on with it.> Whether
>>> there is enough for successful legal claims is another matter> altogether
>>> indeed.> How would you know whether or not there could be successful
>>> claims> when you have not even tested the waters.> You have 57-pages of
>>> record to start with.> Do you want more?> > On 6/30/13, Tumasang Martin
>>> <tumasangm@hotmail.com> wrote:> > Mau>
> > Mau Victory: Old Empires Shiver> >> >> > Saturday, 29 June 2013 00:00> >
> By Kamal Tayo Oropo News> > - World> >> >> >> > User Rating: / 1> >
> PoorBest> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > IN what many thought would end up as
> another exercise in futility, a group> > of> > self-determination freedom
> fighter may have blazed the trail in making the> > British and other
> colonialists and/or their representatives admit to crimes> >> > committed
> against humanity.> >> > Call them Mau Mau, a nickname Kenya Land and Freedom
> Army (KLFA) or Uma Uma,> >> > which means 'get out get out' in Kikuyu, the
> outcome of their stunning legal> >> > battle against the United Kingdom, for
> the systemic violence committed> > during> > the group's struggle for
> self-determination, is unprecedented.> >> > Indeed, apart from Germany,
> which was made to pay for Holocaust crimes> > committed against the Jews,
> the world has hardly witnessed any foreign power> >> > found guilty of
> misdeeds
> against the locals.> >> > On Thursday, June 6, 2013, nearly 200 elderly
> Kikuyu people traveled from> > their rural homesteads and sat before the
> British high commissioner in> > Nairobi.> > Over half a century had passed
> since many were last in front of a British> > official. It was a different
> era then in Kenya. The Mau Mau war was raging,> > and> > Britain was
> implementing coercive policies that left indelible scars on the> >> > bodies
> and minds of countless men and women suspected of subversive> > activities.>
>>> > In the 1950s they experienced events in colonial detention camps that
> few> > imagined possible. On this historic day they gathered to witness
> another> > unimaginable thing: the much-delayed colonial gesture at
> reconciliation. The> >> > High Commissioner read extracts from William
> Hague's earlier statement in> > parliament. Hague acknowledged for the first
> time that the elderly Kikuyu> > and> > other Kenyans had been subjected to
> torture
> and other horrific abuses during> > the> > Mau Mau insurgency. On behalf of
> the British government he expressed> > "sincere> > regret" that these abuses
> had taken place, announced payments of £2,600 to> > each> > of 5,200 vetted
> claimants, and urged that the process of healing for both> > nations begin.>
>>> > The faces of the elderly camp survivors betrayed the day's historical>
>> significance. Tears rolled down faces lined from years of internalised
> pain> > and> > bitterness. Many sat motionless as the High Commissioner read
> the statement.> >> > Others let out audible gasps, and cries of joy. Some
> burst into songs.> >> > Yet, the Mau Mau victory is not only theirs as
> Britain's acknowledgement of> >> > colonial era torture may have opened as
> many intended doors. Kenya was not> > alone. British colonial repression was
> systematised and honed in many parts> > of> > Africa and several other parts
> of the world including Palestine, Malaya,> >
> Cyprus,> > Aden, Northern Ireland and elsewhere, British coercive
> counter-insurgency> > tactics evolved, as did brutal interrogation
> techniques. The Mau Mau> > detention> > camps were but one site in a broader
> policy of end-of-empire incarceration,> >> > torture and cover-up.> >> > In
> the wake of its announcement, Britain now faces potential claims from> >
> across its former empire. From a historical perspective, the government has>
>>> > every reason to be concerned about its legacy. There is unequivocal
> evidence> > of> > colonial brutalities in many former colonies. Whether
> there is enough for> > successful legal claims is another matter
> altogether.> >> > Britain is, however, not alone. Alleged atrocities of
> Portugal, the first> > and> > the last colonial power to leave Africa, are
> legendary. The Portuguese> > misdeeds> > are rivaled only by those of
> France, particularly in Algeria and Conakry> > (Guinea), Belgium in Congo
> and Germany in Namibia. Dutch
> and Italian> > atrocities> > are not exempted> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >> > --> > You received this message
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